Banking's battle with digital currencies

In the race between decentralization versus centralization, cryptocurrency is transforming the traditional banking system and finance. Discussions over whether governments should issue digital currencies of their own to augment or eventually replace their traditional currencies continue. The use of stablecoins is surging rapidly, and regulators have grown increasingly concerned they could lead to a digital-era bank run. A treasure map is about to be drawn by Regulators, the OCC, and the Treasury Department for banking's path toward digital currencies. Which dotted lines should those providing financial services follow as the search for X marks the spot intensifies? How can crypto and traditional banking offer mutually beneficial solutions that leverage the advantages of both?


Transcription:
00:00:13:07 - 00:00:46:14
Penny Crosman

Welcome everyone to the session. It's on a super interesting topic of what banks can do with cryptocurrency, how they can be competitive of what's happening in the landscape. I've got a great panel of really smart people in this field. We have Brad Scrivener who is CEO of Best Bank in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We have William White, who is with who is with Lasagna Technologies, the co-founder.

00:00:46:23 - 00:01:11:27
Penny Crosman

And we have a Stefan Whitner, who is CEO of GEICO a Challenger bank turned bank turned many things. So welcome all of you to this panel. Let's start with you, Brad. Can you tell us a little bit about Vast Bank and what you do on a day to, you know, what the bank does on a day to day basis, the kinds of customers that you serve.

00:01:12:13 - 00:01:48:18
Brad Scrivner

Yeah, sure. Thanks for having us on. Really appreciate the opportunity to have the discussion. So, you know, we're headquartered in Tulsa, Oklahoma, about an $800 million asset bank. Family owned. Been around since 1982 so coming up on on 40 years with that and we have historically been a community bank making most of our revenue from business type of activities classic loans deposit gathering and and serving the community.

00:01:49:16 - 00:02:16:11
Brad Scrivner

Certainly more recently we have done, I guess you would say some interesting things that have led us to be on this particular panel. And you know we were the first in the US to implement SAP banking services and you know, we think we're certainly one of the first, if not the first to have a platform completely built out according to open banking standards and BSD to compatibility and, and monitoring APIs.

00:02:16:11 - 00:02:59:06
Brad Scrivner

And certainly from a national bank perspective, We believe we're the first to launch with a seamless ability to to purchase and custody, buy, sell, convert cryptocurrency. And we've got 12 of those on our platform right now. And that has certainly elevated our national profile, allowed us to break through the noise with that. So we have now a national footprint of all 50 states, three US territory areas and that we're bringing on on a daily basis very high volume of new customers.

00:02:59:07 - 00:03:01:11
Brad Scrivner

So maybe that's enough of an overview.

00:03:02:00 - 00:03:04:00
Penny Crosman

That you just answered about five more of my questions.

00:03:04:08 - 00:03:05:03

Brad Scrivner
Sorry, I didn't.

00:03:05:03 - 00:03:23:21
Penny Crosman

Respond to that. No problem. Thank you. Yes. And that's super interesting. And we want to we want to circle back to a lot of that and we have will wait at Amazon New Technology. Could you tell us a little bit about your current company, Will, and what were some of the jobs you had before this?

00:03:24:14 - 00:03:49:05
Will White

Yeah, I'm a current company. I'm the co-founder of the Sony Technologies I'm lucky to find it with a wonderful lady called Cookie. Here it is. We we set out to be a bass consultancy. I mean, I think if we're completely honest, we thought it wouldn't take hold, but it did. We wound up recommending advising, sponsor banks, the actual best providers the end brands.

00:03:49:05 - 00:04:23:02
Will White

You wanted to use that bank as a service capacity in among that company had actually been she'd been chief of staff at the block the big crypto magazine. And then I had worked with the various crypto projects over the years, having been a very early member of Monzo in the UK, which really hit my accent and then they like the UK bank in the UK and we, we were getting in, I mean relevant to this panel, we were getting an increasing number of questions around crypto.

00:04:23:03 - 00:04:43:02
Will White

So whether that was kind of spots banks should understand the banks generally, each one understand how to get into space, people understanding how they should approach it And Turkey has actually spun out a separate business called Wylie, where we're trying to build a marketplace between compliance experts that exist in the traditional finance world. With crypto projects who have those questions.

00:04:43:03 - 00:04:50:17
Will White

So that's taking up an increasing amount of our time. It went from a being a very small part of our business to a low interesting.

00:04:50:17 - 00:04:55:28
Penny Crosman

And I just to clarify some use the term VASP, that's a virtual asset service provider. Right.

00:04:56:00 - 00:04:57:16
Will White

And know banking as a service.

00:04:57:27 - 00:05:00:07
Penny Crosman

Oh, I'm sorry. I've got to clarify.

00:05:00:09 - 00:05:25:13
Will White

I'm sorry. Yeah. The service. Yeah, we we it was like back when it was still a very early time, we were like, oh, we'll just we're we're giving the same advice multiple times. Let's spin out of the business we were in and focus really on that because there's very specific concerns from both the brand that space and the consumer, the, the banking service platform layer, and that's a responsive bank.

00:05:26:02 - 00:05:34:15
Will White

But within that, we got an increasing number of crypto related questions. So that's where I think we've focused more of our time now.

00:05:35:10 - 00:05:37:21
Penny Crosman

So is it fair to call Azania a consultancy?

00:05:38:05 - 00:05:39:04
Will White

We are a consultancy, yeah.

00:05:39:26 - 00:05:56:08
Penny Crosman

All right. Just to be clear. Great. And Stefon, could you tell us a little bit about Chico and maybe just, you know, the short version of how you started out, how you bought this bank and got a bank charter and then what you're doing today?

00:05:56:28 - 00:06:17:15
Stephane Lintner

Yeah, well, it started with, you know, a realization that was a few of us were working on Wall Street. We came from tech backgrounds initially in science. Some of us witnessed 28 firsthand looking, parachuting to back office, looking at mainframes and thinking that the bank was going on the next day, which, you know, nine months in a job felt certainly interesting.

00:06:17:29 - 00:06:39:23
Stephane Lintner

And we all had the same desire to create a platform that would actually withhold the next one and protect the consumer and the account holders and really scale, because ultimately what we're doing is regulated. You need a regulated institution or a few of them that can that can scale and really provide the services to everyone who needs them out there.

00:06:39:28 - 00:07:13:12
Stephane Lintner

The term technical term is banking as a service, but it goes beyond that. And so we, you know, we started in 2016 with a desire and we've done it now to build a financial institution that rests on three things that's nationally chartered a ready for you potentially global expansion at some point it owns its technology stack rebuild from scratch on what tomorrow's world needs so compatible with crypto would make sense centralize where it makes sense with a single focus on the efficiency and protection of the consumer and delivered.

00:07:13:17 - 00:07:30:00
Stephane Lintner

So JICA is not a levered institution. Our business model isn't to take deposits, lend them out. There's a real need for many institutions to do that that needs to be distributed. That's what that's what banks are foreign lenders. But you also need a layer that can just house a lot of cash moving around process payments and and that's what we've built.

00:07:30:00 - 00:07:57:24
Stephane Lintner

So we run out a different fuel. Every account that is invested in Treasury bills isn't just a bank holding company that owns a bank of technology. We also operate our own broker dealer and NGOs model. Every end account holder is uniquely identified and holds Treasury bills or equivalent government securities. That gives us scale. It protects everyone and allows us to to move fast and fluidly at a time where the world is getting more and more digital.

00:07:58:04 - 00:07:58:22
Stephane Lintner

So that's us.

00:07:59:12 - 00:08:29:13
Penny Crosman

Okay, great. Thank you. So. So let's go back to you, Brad. You talked about how and I think it's true that that vast bank is the first community bank to go live with letting people buy and sell cryptocurrency is through their through their bank, through the mobile banking app and on and that. So it is it is rather groundbreaking to tell us a little bit about how you built this.

00:08:29:13 - 00:08:52:27
Penny Crosman

You know, I know you've got a couple of partners you're working with, but I guess, first of all, what kind of drove you to to go ahead when, you know, there's still some hesitation, I think in uncertainty out there. And what are what were some of the steps that you took to make that happen?

00:08:54:11 - 00:09:45:28
Brad Scrivner

Yeah. So I think the implied was in your question as we didn't just wake up with the Oxy announcement and decide that we were going to offer this service. So, you know, going back to 2016, the family, the shareholder and the board had some strategic decisions that we felt like needed to be made. And I think as everyone that is on the and watching this program understands is that, you know, coming out of the great downturn, you had customer preferences that were changing you had technology changes, you had new competitors coming into the space, whether that be fintech, whether that be, you know, Google, Apple, Facebook, you know, you name the big tech companies that that

00:09:45:28 - 00:10:25:11
Brad Scrivner

are coming in, there was regulatory changes. So I mean, all of these massive changes were coming in and the ability for many banks to react to that, we felt like was a tremendous threat to to our business. Model. And we felt like that there was a 60 to 70% consolidation rate within banking that we thought the trend was going to be, you know, parenthetically in 2018, you know, you had Gartner come out with their heritage financial piece that says 80% you know will be not relevant by 2028.

00:10:25:11 - 00:11:09:01
Brad Scrivner

I mean people can agree or disagree but certainly that was within our realm of thinking that drove us to do something so starting in 2016 we took a look at both internally, organizationally the mindset that we felt like it would take to be able to compete in this new world and we wanted to a tech stack that and with more broadly wanted a tool set because I'd argue that just throwing technology at a problem in many times can complicate the problem even more so than solve the problem if you don't get the mindset of your organization processes and other things.

00:11:09:01 - 00:11:45:15
Brad Scrivner

So the entire toolset working right. So we made a decision ultimately that to make a switch over to the SAP platform and to essentially abstract and sorry and use that language to put in place a modern connectivity mechanism so that we could partner with others. So from our standpoint, we wanted to put customer first in terms of our thinking we wanted to think of the journey from the customer's perspective.

00:11:45:24 - 00:12:18:15
Brad Scrivner

We wanted to make it easy to partner and integrate with others. We felt like that it was in the consumer's best interest to compete on things like open banking, and I really like the PSD2 concept that they've done in Europe, which which removes friction of switching costs for customers. Because again, I think you compete not based upon putting barriers in place to customers, but by serving what they want to happen.

00:12:18:25 - 00:12:49:03
Brad Scrivner

And I think open banking helps to accomplish that and helps to serve the customer more. So we had those decisions, we had the platform in place and when the announcement by the OSC came out with their interpretive letter that banks could national banks could custody digital assets, we were prepared. We had already launched some fintech partners on top of us to be able to do that.

00:12:49:03 - 00:13:18:19
Brad Scrivner

We had the platform well developed, so we were able to reprioritize, and in January we were able to do that seamless transaction directly out of the account on a pilot basis. We had a fintech partner by the name of investor investor that in the second quarter that launched with that, and then we launched our direct offering with vast crypto banking, which shameless plug is available on the App Store and Google Play.

00:13:18:19 - 00:13:34:03
Brad Scrivner

You know, go download it and try it out for yourself. You should be able to on board within 5 minutes, send us lots of money. You bankers are rich so you know, are open and send us some money. So anyway, I think I answered your question. Sorry, I don't mean to be tongue in cheek.

00:13:36:08 - 00:13:48:19
Penny Crosman

But that was hilarious. So what kind do you started this in January? What kind of reaction have you gotten or are close to jumping at it? Or are they kind of still kind of wondering?

00:13:49:12 - 00:14:14:03
Brad Scrivner

No, you know, I said or it's been amazing, quite honestly, you know, we're more than five times the size of our customer base in 80 days down what it took 40 years to build. So I mean, I'm not going to talk about specific numbers, but you know, anyway, I think that that's I saw a well, that was a thank you.

00:14:14:03 - 00:14:17:06
Brad Scrivner

Well that was a great reaction why eye-popping you know that.

00:14:17:20 - 00:14:17:27
Will White

I.

00:14:18:22 - 00:14:19:04
Brad Scrivner

Wrote.

00:14:19:17 - 00:14:47:13
Will White

What I was expecting I was expecting like a result but like five times is a lot but I mean it answers a very simple question, which is most customers want something that they understand and trust. Like crypto feels very, very scary and it doesn't need to be. And building that kind of last mile out and putting the trust of a of an established and long established bank with a reputation is doesn't it doesn't surprise me.

00:14:47:25 - 00:14:54:02
Will White

It surprises me how big that success is. But it doesn't surprise me that you had real success. That's amazing.

00:14:55:10 - 00:15:22:24
Brad Scrivner

Yeah. So we're pleased with it, you know, and and you know, and then the question obviously, you you there's no benchmarks when you're pioneering, right? So is that good? And should we be 25 times? Should we have been three times? You know, I don't know what the answer to that is. But, you know, the fact is, is that we are able to we understand our customer.

00:15:22:24 - 00:15:53:23
Brad Scrivner

We you know, clearly we have an MVP product that is out there that will continue to get better. And we intend to listen to our customer and have them be a part of that iterative process to continue to get better. But I feel good about where we're positioned. I think that it's a good place to be. I think that you know, people ask me about whether what my opinion is on digital assets and all that kind of stuff.

00:15:53:23 - 00:16:20:24
Brad Scrivner

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what my opinion is. You know, our job as a bank is to people provide us things of value. We are to store it, help them transfer it. In some cases, we leverage our balance sheet to lend against it, you know, in a risk mitigated way. And at the end of the day, our regulator does expect us to do that in a safe and sound manner.

00:16:21:03 - 00:16:43:25
Brad Scrivner

I mean, it's pretty simple and it's up to the customer to determine whether what's valuable to them whether it's a piece of art, whether it's a digital asset, whether it's their marriage certificate that they store in their safe deposit box. It's the bank's job to store it safe, keep it, and to act according to their instructions.

00:16:44:14 - 00:17:04:29
Will White

And and also the huge bit the crypto industry doesn't do remotely well, which is twofold. One, know your customer and know how to deal with your customer when once once you know them know how to deal with them. Like good, potentially bad and bad, you know, like that is a huge thing that the crypto industry is having to learn how to mature very, very fast.

00:17:06:01 - 00:17:26:24
Will White

Listening to what you understand, which is you understand how to acquire customers, get them to trust you like actually on board them effectively and then look after them. I mean, I think I'm not dumping on Coinbase. I think Brian and the team are doing an amazing job, but I believe they've only really just ramped up their customer success and customer support functionality.

00:17:27:16 - 00:17:45:18
Will White

Honestly, in the last 12 months, you know, whereas any bank has been doing customer service and understanding the customer for years. So you're leaning into that and then as you say, then just doing it as you should as an asset, an asset on which a lot of other people have made an assessment of the ones that are good and the ones that are unsavory.

00:17:45:23 - 00:17:49:14
Will White

You know, and you put the, the good ones on. I think it's very.

00:17:50:04 - 00:17:58:20
Penny Crosman

That's a good point. And I'm sure banks will attract a different kind of customer than some of the existing you know, exchanges and providers.

00:17:58:20 - 00:18:17:17
Stephane Lintner

It's a different use case, right? It's the storage versus I mean, you hinted at the movement, but what I what I'm curious to see happening over time is where this goes in the defi web3 world, all that stuff that just from the latest hype, who holds the assets there and how do we ensure that they move on the right protocols and safely in somebody like you're saying?

00:18:17:17 - 00:18:32:29
Stephane Lintner

Because that's that's what banks historically have gone. It's not easy. It's a different type of rails that needs to be built has to be open. But it's still money or at least very you know, the moment it starts to become large, that's where that's where the banks will have to play a role in it. That's what is is headed.

00:18:32:29 - 00:18:37:03
Stephane Lintner

So storage and movement is really the hard part to get right to your point. Right.

00:18:37:15 - 00:19:04:20
Brad Scrivner

Yeah. Well, in the end, if you think about that, you know, historically speaking, because the blockchain, right, is intended to be open you know, in terms of being public, being able to see what's happening. And so I think there's also going to be a balance as people realize you know, there are pieces of transactions that perhaps need to be, you know, kept from the public blockchain.

00:19:04:20 - 00:19:32:20
Brad Scrivner

I write. And so how are things like that going to take place? How are you know, if you think about things like you know, my favorite one is elder abuse, right? Because no one wants to wake up with it with grandma that is now sent through defi world because we now are in a direct world to people in whatever some other country because nephew has been kidnaped.

00:19:32:20 - 00:20:08:24
Brad Scrivner

I mean, bankers know those stories well. Right. So intermediaries have traditionally stepped into that gap. So, you know, I am fully supportive of the defi world and the concept and the ability to remove friction and, you know, all of those really good things and sophisticated users like institutions. Let's think about it. You know, there have been alternative trading systems there have been things like that that have taken place in the traditional fiat world for many years.

00:20:09:01 - 00:20:36:16
Brad Scrivner

Well, essentially that's two parties moving things directly to each other right now. Is defi going to step into that space in the blockchain world? And if so, how are those things going to be kept private and if we're going to extend that to to the broader, less sophisticated group, what happens whenever people's assets disappear, you know, because it's gone.

00:20:36:16 - 00:20:42:17
Brad Scrivner

It's gone. So anyway, I mean, I, I don't mean to dominate the conversation. Sorry. I just went off.

00:20:42:17 - 00:20:58:02
Will White

I don't know, but I, I'm somebody in agreement with you. Like, I think after I've been playing around with it for about seven years and yes, if you're like a banking dog which I am, I'm like, oh, my God, you get to be your own bank. This is really fun. Most people in the world want to just get up and live their lives, right?

00:20:58:09 - 00:21:20:02
Will White

And what they're looking for is the money to move out. They're looking to store their assets or make an investment. And a lot of this stuff is so wrapped up in in the in the culture of crypto, which has been very kind of like off the side. There's a whole nother language that eventually needs to be translated. And part of that translation is not just in language.

00:21:20:02 - 00:21:32:28
Will White

It's about you don't want to be your own bank like most people don't want to be their own bank. I don't want to be I'm sure that someone in the world is said to be the the water company, you know, but I couldn't care less. It's one of those on the top of, you know, like, it's it's not.

00:21:33:24 - 00:21:59:01
Will White

And so just because it's conceptually fun doesn't mean that it's actually what people want. And there is a need for an intermediary that people trust and that that trusted person to do is the same function. It's an asset, it's moving money, it's knowing that customer and interfacing with the regulator who is ensuring that there is an elder abuse or other types of financial criminality which are unsavory or particularly damaging to society.

00:21:59:01 - 00:22:13:29
Will White

You know, and yeah, that's why I love what you guys are doing, like because I think that, that it's the next step. And I think there's been a lot of sort of quite fringe noise in the space. And I love the fact that we're now moving into space where people are like, what are the real time real world applications?

00:22:14:07 - 00:22:38:10
Will White

I must send the same message to multiple people translating it. I'm like, Bitcoin, digital gold deflector digital banking and payments, you know, NFT, digital IP rights management. I'm just like, there's nothing new. Does digital digital equity in governance I mean, the reason no one's saying that thing right now is because, hey, there's a, there's a heavy conversation that needs to go on with the regulators around, especially the SNC around.

00:22:38:24 - 00:23:02:14
Will White

Okay. This is potentially equity, but no one wants to say that right now. Like, so you're you're kind of in this interesting space where and actually I love the fact that more of the industry is now engaging with the regulators and more engaging with people who have been doing this for a long time and discovering that a lot of the things that are complicated for them are done better by other institutions who really understand that part of the customer experience or that part of their the banking experience.

00:23:03:25 - 00:23:25:16
Penny Crosman

So, Stefan, what are your thoughts about some of this? How do you think Gecko might jump into this world if you haven't already? What kind of what kinds of roles do you think you might play? You know, assuming we get maybe some regulatory clarity about exactly who's allowed to do what?

00:23:26:16 - 00:23:43:16
Stephane Lintner

I think Well, first of all, I agree with with the viewpoint here, none of this is actually new. It has a name in, you know, generation after generation. So it's the same constraints that the emerging finance and then regulators know how to regulate it. So it's all about the frameworks coming where it's a security, where it's a what it's money.

00:23:43:16 - 00:24:02:05
Stephane Lintner

And if it's money, then it's money transmitter license and bank license and everything that comes with it. I think what's what's fundamentally new, though, with this whole defi world and blockchain is that for the first time, you've got a a world where those who can't code and can read and know how to manage keys and shouldn't do too much of that because it's always risky.

00:24:02:05 - 00:24:21:25
Stephane Lintner

You can lose your keys, but you have a global standard just goes way outside of the typical France has its own protocol. The U.S. has its and then somehow then you need cross-border payment. So the whole size of this zone comes from the fact that you've got global standards that are emerging. They're not standardized. Each blockchain is its own jungle right now it's a little like free internet.

00:24:21:25 - 00:24:42:10
Stephane Lintner

Every country had its own some other protocol, but there's still a global threat to it. Which which this is. That's why these things are picking up. And they're going way beyond just money. Actually, money is already digital today. We have our digital very few people hold cash and seem of T-bills and anything else. So it's not standard at all is how you buy a house.

00:24:42:10 - 00:25:02:12
Stephane Lintner

And the contracts, i.e. the gaming industry is global. All these things are creating a need for global and a global global approach here. And so you're going to need global players who can start providing more unified APIs, money, storage, and regulator, and be regulated correctly, and you're going to need global coordination around that. It's not just my funding is when I look at it.

00:25:02:12 - 00:25:37:17
Stephane Lintner

It's it's nice for, as you see, to decide on what these things should be, but it's not really according to a lot of regulators, then you're still going to have this massive mess where things are complicated to move. And then a lot of the bad actors going through the jurisdictions, they're not regulated. So we the encouragement should be for everyone to keep thinking about global standardization, to keep it simpler to handle so that we can all do our jobs well of knowing our customers and and facilitating transfers and movements goes design pretty much for myself and Japanese were all about identifying the users and keeping track of you in the digital world.

00:25:38:00 - 00:25:53:22
Stephane Lintner

Our platform is delivered on purpose. We use T-bills as the storage, but that can change over time. We are not bound to it. Like we're getting a lot of requests to add cryptocurrencies to our platform when and when we do it. We're not as established as a six year old banks, but we want to be careful how we do it.

00:25:54:28 - 00:26:08:17
Stephane Lintner

And maybe we should grant but but we can provide that that scale being delivered to really provide more direct access in general to digital money. That's that's what we're built for right now. And does anyone.

00:26:08:17 - 00:26:18:09
Penny Crosman

Want to venture an opinion about what they would like US regulators to do? I mean, it seems like there's a lot of options out here. You know, like.

00:26:18:24 - 00:26:37:19
Will White

I I've got a fairly firm view of this like us. So firstly, what Brad's doing is amazing, right? So he's bringing the asset that is going to be a growing asset class that has proved to the regular retail consumer. That's phenomenal. And the S&P consumer who once put it into that Treasury, that's what we need banks to do.

00:26:37:23 - 00:26:59:26
Will White

But in literally in the last week, we've had we've had the A the SCC going off the block five for a 3% return. I'm not saying that that investigation is wrong, but it's also completely unfocused. My WhatsApp in the last week three people have sent me what is literally a class like an open and shut Ponzi scheme. People have photographs and said, should I put my money into this?

00:26:59:26 - 00:27:24:05
Will White

And I'm like, no, I spent some time with someone yesterday, my background when Lehman Brothers went bust in London, I was on the insolvency team that went in and unwound it. And you get to discover pretty quickly how sophisticated stuff is or is not. And I did like a one on one on like how a bank works and where the funding can go wrong because somebody was turning up to me with literally an 80,000 API and I'm like, Someone's got to pay that.

00:27:24:08 - 00:27:51:09
Will White

Who's paying that? Let's break it down to a weekly level. Does that work if we think it's kind of like investment banking? So is there a short term funding need but someone's something breaks here and also your retail consumer aged 22 wonderful guy, incredibly smart to go to Stefan's point like he's a he's an engineer, he knows a lot of stuff and he's doing he is my go to person to make sure that I'm not my full 39 years and stealing out a date.

00:27:51:16 - 00:28:21:03
Will White

But you know he comes to me with a with just a basic banking mistake and I'm like you know someone has to pay that VAT rate like why would that work? Let's just break it down. Could a trader use that to invest in something that's going, you know, exponential and that sort of. Yeah, and but the regulators focused on BlockFi giving 3% on basically the sort of the most basic possible execution of lending in this space.

00:28:21:21 - 00:28:40:22
Will White

I'm not saying that they shouldn't regulate that they should, but there's people coming around the side and the potential these people aren't resident in the U.S. I would be surprised if the team that are heavily focused on that have got a Delaware Corp. Well, you know well, you know, I mean, it's just not going to be the case.

00:28:40:22 - 00:29:00:25
Will White

So who are you going to go after? And there will be somebody getting messed around by that. So you need people in the regulators who really understand where the bleeding edge is to make sure that the focus is on the things that are really going to be damaging to society and encouraging the things that show that there is a very safe side of it, which is why I love what Brett's doing.

00:29:02:06 - 00:29:21:02
Penny Crosman

All right. Awesome. Well, I'm afraid we're out of time. There's an interesting, really interesting conversation. And I kind of like that there are more questions than answers at this point. It makes it a an interesting time. So thank you all so much for joining us. And thank you in the audience. For listening. Hope you have a great rest of your day.

00:29:22:03 - 00:29:22:18
Brad Scrivner

Thanks, guys.