Instant Everything: Innovation That's Driving Real-Time A2A Payments

A spike in account-to-account (A2A) instant payments—accelerated by the effects of an instant-everything culture—is challenging the banking industry. The rise of A2A instant payments is forcing banks to confront a vastly different model and fast-moving innovation that gives customers more control and strips out intermediaries. The panel examines the innovation and cultural forces driving this change, who's leading the charge on A2A instant payments, what it means for consumers, potential fraud implications of exploding usage and what's at stake for incumbents.

Transcription:

Bailey Reutzel (00:12):

Yes. So my days many times look like this. I wake up to a flurry of emails, all which are supposedly urgent and need instant response. I decide I'm not going to instantly respond to those and I open my calm meditation app and instantly have hundreds of meditations to choose from. I then go to work, I do instant messaging. When my stomach starts rumbling, I get on DoorDash and instantly order food that gets delivered to me. If I forget something to buy something, I can instantly go on Amazon order something and it will come probably the next day.

(00:51):

Instant streaming of music, of movies, everything. My payments. On the other hand, sometimes they are instant, at least the way that I view them, but on the backend, sometimes they're very much not instant. So we get what we're talking about here? Yes, please. I need instant gratification. Come on. Now we are talking about instant payments. We are going to talk about account to count payments. Let me introduce my lovely panelists, right to my right. Yep. That's my right. We have Alex Gold, Head of Payments at column. We have Laura Yens. Did I say that right? Yes. Yes. Okay. Head of Legal at X Money. And then we have Gretchen Rodriguez, Head of Product Payments at TD Bank. Alright, let's get into it. The first question, I just want to sort of lay some groundwork here. It seems probably obvious to a lot of us, but just so we're all on the same page, why are we doing this instant payments thing? I'll start with you.

Alex Gold (01:54):

Yeah, I mean, I think for us it was kind of a core feature that we wanted to offer our customers of the ability to move money real time. The US obviously lags behind a whole bunch of other countries in terms of offering instant payments, and so we were pretty early adopters to Fed. Now we joined the RTP network, but for us it was really important to both our core community service banking customer group in terms of go to market and being able to bring in additional deposits, at least where we have FinTech partners. It was really just another feature that we can enable for them. And so really important for them to ultimately be leaders and offer that to their end users.

Bailey Reutzel (02:34):

Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

Laura Yens (02:37):

So I think we look at it in two ways, right? There's the infrastructure layer and then there's the app or access layer. So when you're talking about Fed Now and RTP, there's your infrastructure and to your point, the US is far behind other countries. There are about 40 countries that launched real-time growth settlement systems around the world, well before the US launched ours. So we have that aspect of it. And I think with all of these faster payment systems or instant payment systems, the real benefit is there's real time growth, settlement, settlement of the transaction real time. So that substantially reduces if not eliminates systemic risk. So that's a huge benefit to the market and that's why with all these other countries around the world, there were federal mandates, which the US is not able to do mandating banks to join these systems. And so now it's just a point to get the endpoints involved as well. And then you have the ISO 2022, right? The system messaging, it has unlimited data fields, so you can put in on your invoice for a business, all the details of the invoice in the request for pay instead of having the paper invoice alongside and having to reconcile that. So I think there's huge benefits from that. Now it's just a matter of getting the endpoints involved. That's why Zelle as an is riding over it, Venmo, et cetera.

Bailey Reutzel (03:58):

And Gretchen.

Gretchen Rodriguez (03:59):

Yeah, so when we think about instant payments or faster payment or real-time payment, I think we all have different perceptions of that. The first thing that we think is always that customer gratification, because again, we are all customers, so we have that in mind, but real time payment is also about money in terms of commercial, when we think about commercial banking on small business that will make the difference between being here or not to be here tomorrow for the small businesses, we know that they operate with a high level cash flow that it's moving all the time. When we think about commercial, it's about being relevant for your customers and being there when they need you. When we think about a commercial client, for instance, offering B2C, it is the difference between being relevant and bank with this bank versus just being with a bank that is not offering what I need.

(04:50):

So it's not only about gratification and instant shot of the dopamine, it's also about money and it's about having a clear picture of your cashflow position. It's about having clarity on where you need to buy now, what is the best vendor to pick because it's offering other payment options and it's pretty much about disrupting other industries. When we think about distribution channels, when we think about constructions, for instance, when we think about of course healthcare, it's not only about the money movement, that's just the last piece, but on top of that, there are a lot of overlay services that are disrupting the way that we interact today.

Bailey Reutzel (05:28):

And all of you mentioned the US lagging behind here. I definitely want to talk about that and just maybe some of the things that we've seen overseas as well. Are there lessons that we could learn there? I guess the first question though is just like why do you think the US has lagged behind? And I'll just add my 2 cents. I do think these are a little bit different. I love my credit card points. I don't want to get rid of my credit card points. I do use Venmo though, but they're just separate things. They're separate buckets of purchases. But yeah, you can start with you Alex.

Alex Gold (06:03):

Yeah, I mean I think the first point that you mentioned around credit card acceptance, credit card use, there is just a fundamental difference here in the US versus other jurisdictions. And so there's a lot of people who kind of think that that's one of the reasons why I do think the other reason, which is what Laura had alluded to, is there was no federal mandate to adopt RTP. There is no federal mandate to adopt Fed Now, and you see that in other countries. And so while I think it's something that we would all eagerly welcome a federal mandate to adopt that, I don't think that's something that we can rely upon. However, I do think that there is a call to action for the banks to actually put that onus on themselves to adopt these payment rails in the same way that they've had to adopt a CH wires and checks previously.

Bailey Reutzel (06:47):

Yeah, I mean, do you have anything to add Laura there?

Laura Yens (06:49):

No, I would agree with everything you said. And then also with respect to credit cards, I think they're just so ubiquitous when you think about Reese's Reach, it's 4.3 billion cards, right? 200 countries and territories, 14,500 financial institutions that's connecting together and 140 million merchants, that's really hard to beat. And then it's also cross border functionality. And I think these instant payment systems they're gathering up, especially domestically where they're federally mandated, you can have a lot of different endpoints, again, connecting to, because the banks have already connected to that system, but then to get the cross-border ubiquity, even to get ubiquity within your own country is very challenging to do. I will say that also where you've seen it be more successful, like India, like Brazil, they were primarily cash-based economies to begin with, so you'll just switch right over to their phones. So it's super easy for them and it seems much more natural, whereas here we're trained with our credit cards and debit cards, et cetera.

Bailey Reutzel (07:52):

Yeah, fair. Gretchen, do you want to add

Gretchen Rodriguez (07:54):

As well? Yeah, I just want to add that yes, in our countries, particularly Brazil, which is probably the second most important use case for picks, you kind of grow up with your phone as the only screen that you have. It's not that you have a Mac and that you have a iPad. It said you do everything with your phone. So your level of interaction as an velocity in terms of just doing everything with your phone is very high. So that's a reality. And if you mix that with financial inclusion, that's a different factor versus the US where you come from an economy that is mostly based in cash and suddenly the government is telling you, Hey, there is a new way of doing this. And on top of that, there are neo banks that are saying, you know what? It's very easy to open an account.

(08:37):

Why are you struggling with your cash? And someone might probably steal it from you the moment that you step up into the boss. So all of those realities come together and make beautiful cases like Brazil for instance. Of course, the government behind saying this is the real, making it a little bit mandatory, which is something that I don't see happening of course in the us, but that dictates a little bit of a unique way of interacting and users are believing that that's a way of just moving money today. And we will see more and more when we talk about digital currencies. Again, the government behind saying, you can do it, we trust you. Even the dispute systems and all of that in Brazil happen via the central bank. It's not like here that you still have to go through your bank. So there are different things that are definitely dictating and different way of seeing the money movement capabilities.

Bailey Reutzel (09:26):

Did you say digital currencies? I thought you were the one that didn't want to talk about cryptocurrency. Alright, I see. We're going to get to it. We're going to get to it. It was interesting that you had also talked about you would love sort of a federal mandate to accept RTV or Fed Now. I mean, look, no matter what your politics are, it seems a bit chaotic in Washington right now. Do you think that's going to affect, it's going to affect everything, but how do you see it affecting this move to instant payments?

Alex Gold (10:02):

I don't know if we'll ever get to the federal mandate level as much as I think the Fed would love to increase adoption of Fed. Now, the Clearing House would obviously be supportive of some sort of mandate to have more folks on RTP. I just don't think we're ever going to get there where you have full support of requiring that of all banks. But I do think that there's ways that banks can ultimately dip their toes and go in kind of a crawl, walk, run approach when adopting instant payments. And so signing up for receive only to start getting themselves on the network, building that familiarity with how the networks ultimately function and then moving into send capabilities, then RFP capabilities. Obviously we'd love more folks to be enabled for send enabled for RFP. It enables a whole bunch of incredible use cases that are done instantly, but I think we're a long ways off from having a federal level mandate.

Bailey Reutzel (10:59):

Yeah. You mentioned some use cases. I want to talk about those use cases as well. Laura, I'm going to start with you though, for instant payments. What are the new use cases that you can enable with this?

Laura Yens (11:10):

Yeah, I was calling to the businesses and doing the e invoices. I think anytime when you're sending money to a friend, family member, all of the things that basically using demo and other types of FinTech technologies to do, those are other use cases. Again, anytime you use cash, I think the complication is making sure we educate consumers appropriately about the fact that there aren't refunds, there's no chargebacks in this landscape and helping to prevent fraud. I know we'll get to that a little bit later, but I think those are key components and I agree with you, there won't be a federal mandate. The government agency in our country has the power to do it, but I think consumer and business demand will help drive that and has driven it. Again, I think the complication there for the banks, it's expensive to integrate. Some of them don't have the resources to do it. And then the US landscape has more than 10,000 financial institutions, so it's really a complex landscape here versus Australia with four. So it's very, very different too, which also is

Bailey Reutzel (12:12):

Difficult. I was sort of wondering why banks weren't establishing connections, but you're saying it's expensive. Yeah,

Laura Yens (12:19):

Expensive. They're legacy infrastructure systems. So I think there's a lot of the components to why they haven't done it quite yet. Okay.

Bailey Reutzel (12:27):

And then Gretchen, the use case question to you as well, what interesting use cases have you seen connecting account to account?

Gretchen Rodriguez (12:33):

Yes, I'm definitely passionate about request for payment with the RTP and all the great capabilities that we can see with that, not only between bank accounts, but also between your brokerage account and your bank account, and even between wallets. So we will eventually see more of that conversational money movement happening. So I'm very passionate about that part and we saw the announcement from truist and I think we always have to recognize the great things and about the test using an ALIA to reroute the payments capabilities because at the end of the day, when you compare account to account with car, the different is just the convenience. You have the car with you, you have the numbers, that's it. You probably don't remember your routing number and all of that. Some of us are still struggling to understand what that means exactly. Even though we work on the banking, it's like, what do you want me to say?

(13:21):

But again, if we are able to make that seamless include the Alias directory services, being able to reroute based on that final reel, that's pretty exciting. And at the end of the day, if you translate that to e-commerce, then we are tapping into the conversational, which is something that I'm also quite passionate about. We're seeing those numbers very high in Brazil. For instance. I'm going back to the reference, we don't have those in the US yet, but it's around 40% of the transactions in e-commerce are happening via peaks. So I'm sure that there is a moment where all of this will be looking similar in the us. Although going back to your question on the government 10 33 and all of that, it's kind of creating a little bit of a hiccup time for all of us, but I'm sure that the shift in the mindset is already happening, so now it's about getting more comfortable and familiar with all of that.

Bailey Reutzel (14:15):

Yeah. Okay. We're going to go to cryptocurrency next. We are running out of time already. It's crazy. Yeah, so I've been a crypto reporter for many years. It ages you wildly. It's so crazy. But a lot of those conversations have always been about better, faster, instant payments basically. I don't think we've seen that play out, but a new version of cryptocurrency, the stable coin is really like turning heads. We have lots of banks interested in it. JP Morgan and a slew of other banks are thinking about creating their own stable coin for this instant payment rail. But I guess I get skeptical. I love crypto, don't get me wrong, but I get skeptical because we already have an instant payment network in the us. It's just banks haven't adopted it. I guess there's not really a question besides what say you about that, Alex, I'll go to you. Yeah,

Alex Gold (15:07):

I mean there's a lot of excitement, whether it's crypto generally stable coins. I think my counter to that is at the end of the day, you need some way to turn that into fiat currency and to actually get dollars into your bank count. And so there's a difference between a domestic A to a, or even just in the B2B context type use case versus where I think stable coins have more value, which is some sort of international or cross-border element or where folks want to have or key base store of value in US dollar. And so it's exciting to see all the innovation there, but at the same time we do have Fed, now we do have RTP. They both have relatively broad reach amongst accounts of the country. You probably can reach 75, 80% of bank accounts in the country view one of the two rails. And so when I think about stable coins, a lot of excitement, but there's arguably just as much excitement around RTP Fed now,

Bailey Reutzel (16:08):

And I think they're just different use cases as well. Venmo is, I use Venmos for something different. I use account to account for something different. I use credit cards and crypto for something. Gretchen, I am going to pass it to you. You have to talk about cryptocurrency.

Gretchen Rodriguez (16:22):

No, I think that there would be a sweet spot for crypto stable coins and all of that, and tokenization overall, when we think about commercial banking, high volume and international cross border transactions, there is definitely a sweet spot there. But at the end of the day, I still believe that for domestic P two P consumer, we will see more of an enhanced version of a Zelle or others happening in the us.

Laura Yens (16:47):

And I would say other markets are being used to test stable coins. So JP Morgan Chase has a stable coin in Singapore that they've been testing out. So there's definitely banks are testing it perhaps in other markets. So we're seeing that. I still think that also to Alex's point that there isn't really a great use case domestically, but I think cross border, that's where it can be really valuable because it's essentially operating as a token across the border where you don't have to actually do the FX for and form and you don't have a ML, et cetera. You don't have all the laws and regulations that apply when you make that transfer. So you're doing it in FX at some point, but again, it's not money actually moving across borders where a lot of other laws and regulations attach.

Bailey Reutzel (17:32):

Yeah, I guess I do think those laws are coming at some point they'll just have to pick up where everything else left off. But yeah, fair point. Let's turn to the butting heads maybe of banks and fintechs, especially in this account to account space. Where do you think this all is going? Do more banks lose clients to the fintechs or are banks going to partner with those fintechs and retain those relationships? I'll start with you again, Alex.

Alex Gold (18:05):

Yeah, I mean we certainly have a bias view. We regularly partner with technology companies and fintechs, and so that's part of our core bread and butter business. Our view is it is a core payment rail to enable. And so in the same way that every other company will want access to wires, a CH checks, the ability to send money internationally in a really short matter of time, this will become table stakes. And going back to Laura's point earlier, this isn't something that you can implement overnight. And so you need to have the forethought to start that implementation today, get familiar with those payment rails because by the time that you want to be live, it's going to be too late to just be starting the integration. So our view is this is ultimately going to be a pretty big differentiator if you're not on both networks.

Bailey Reutzel (18:56):

Fair enough, Laura?

Laura Yens (18:57):

I think at some point both networks will connect to each other. I mean, we're the only market, but there's two instant payments royals, so I think at some point that will make it more seamless, we hope. And so I think there's that to look forward to. I think that there will always be banks holding the funds in any respect. I continue to see bank FinTech partnerships as a result of that, particularly for fintechs who may not want to be as heavily regulated as banks just become a bank then. So I do think that the regulatory landscape in the US is particularly tough for any company trying to do any kind of money transmission activity, right? 49 states require, then they all come in and audit you. They don't necessarily coordinate. It's really a lot of fun. So I think there is a lot of that aspect to it as well.

Bailey Reutzel (19:46):

And Gretchen,

Gretchen Rodriguez (19:47):

Yes, I think as a person coming from FinTech and working in a very traditional bank, I do believe that there is an intersection there when we think about fintechs as the neighbors for the technology, which is something that banks need not only because of the talent, but also the legacy and all of that. So a couple of use cases that I really love is everything related to account funding. When you need to work with someone like Plaid or a max to connect your accounts and make those funding available as soon as possible. Or when we think about more complex problems like payment orchestrators for instance, where you need to probably take a wire file, just reroute and pass it through RTP or do something similar to make your payment rails more efficient and just take the most out of it. So I do believe that fintechs play a big role there, and at the same time, it's just sitting in the middle understanding how the data is flowing and pointing those opportunities that as a bank you might not be seeing because your systems are usually disconnected. So I think that's where fintechs can come so we can live together in a world that might look quite nice for all of us. Yeah, it's big

Bailey Reutzel (20:58):

Enough for the both of us, huh? Yeah. Oh, kumbaya. I love that. Okay. It's almost, we've got 10 minutes. Maybe just by a show of hands, how many people want to ask questions? Okay, two, three. Great. All in the front. Good job. Yeah, we can go ahead and go to questions. I just want to make sure we answer all you guys'. So this lady here in the front has one.

Audience Member 1 (21:26):

I just wanted to ask about the big elephant in the room. It's awesome with the real-time payments, but fraud comes with it. So how do we think about that outside of all of the buzzwords like using AI pattern matching, et cetera, what are you thinking are practical steps to adopt RTP today and also manage fraud?

Bailey Reutzel (21:49):

Jump on in.

(21:50):

Not answering.

Gretchen Rodriguez (21:53):

It's very interesting with the realtime payment because when we think about cards and reels, we can abstract ourselves from the equation and let networks take care of that, which is kind of the traditional path. But with real time payment, you cannot escape that reality, right? We have authorized fraud or unauthorized fraud. There is a reg involved and all of that. So a couple of things that I'm seeing in the industry. One is some of the overlay services. When we think about account verification for instance, or some of the new enhancements that JP Morgan announced a couple of weeks ago with a score to understand where you're sending the payment before sending, that's one piece. The second is the education to the user is like, no, because you fall in love with someone and they ask you to send a Z, that's real. How do you explain that to the user, right?

(22:41):

Some of the other issues like Romans scam and all of that, you need to educate your clients on that part. And at the same time, the laws in terms of liabilities and all of that are shifting as well. There are rules that are be written when we think about real time payment. When I sent a call to request for return of funds, I use one code for fraud, I use another code for scam that is not officially there yet. So how is the industry shaping and recognizing that this is a reality and good learnings coming unfortunately from Zelle and others, but it's kind of shaping the new path of moving money and making the fraud team comfortable with new features that need to be enabled.

Laura Yens (23:22):

I would also say identify verification on the authorization side, being very clear about whether you actually have the person who says they are and verifying that. And then on the other side, verifying the payee that the name matches the account and the details on the bank account. So there are multiple ways to do that. That's just two that I can think of off the top of my head, but it's a lot of KYC and just verifying. And then those speed bumps confirming you do want to pay this person, what's their phone number? What are the last four digits of their phone number? Those are all designed to help consumers stop for a moment, think, do you really want to make this payment broad, et cetera. We've seen the proliferation of puppy scams, romance scams, all of that. And it's just like how do we help the consumer understand better and to protect against this happening to them, right? Again, we had the learnings from Zelle where it's, I think it was the front page where Zelle had fraud. And I think it's just also educating consumers treat this like cash, the money is leaving, it's out, and that's a lot of it. How do we get that message over to consumer enough so they can really understand that?

Bailey Reutzel (24:37):

Yeah, I think that's, sorry, go ahead. I'm just the moderator, please.

Alex Gold (24:41):

I was actually going to say I have a different contrarian view on fraud, which is it's not really a fundamental difference than what you see on wires. And so it's all the same risks, a lot of the same vectors. Yes, there could be a difference in terms of settlement speed, but the network still allow you to not process or hold payments for suspicious activity or activity that doesn't fit a customer profile. And so I think actually there's this myth of you have to release a hundred percent of your payments instantly. There's a little asterisk to that, which is you're allowed to do your normal fraud or suspicious activity type monitoring. You're actually encouraged to continue doing that and in some cases by law required to continue doing that. And so I think there's a lot of this discussion around what does instant payments mean for fraud, instant payments, instant fraud. I actually will typically take the other view, which is we're probably one of the larger, if not the largest Fed Now and RTP originators and we've seen zero fraud to date. And so we've seen absolutely no change relative to it's actually been lower relative to wire or a CH or check volumes.

Bailey Reutzel (25:52):

But that is not just because they cannot charge it back. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Alex Gold (25:58):

Yes, yes. But it is in the same way where with wires where once you send it it's final and irrevocable. And so you still have the same fundamental risk and it's important to build in those controls of what are you doing to prevent that before sending the transaction. So the speed bumps that Laura mentioned of are you 100% sure that you should be sending the money? Are you a hundred percent sure that you have the authorization to send this money? And so doing a lot of those confirmations upfront helps to kind of build those controls in before the transactions ultimately submitted to the fed or the clearing house.

Laura Yens (26:32):

I was just tag on to Alex's statement too with respect to transaction limits. So there are transactions limits set, and that's an anti-money laundering requirement. So that also helps prevent someone from sending a hundred thousand dollars through a system through one of these payment apps. So that helps at least reduce the scale of their fraud

Gretchen Rodriguez (26:54):

And probably adding limits. And there's a new feature from Monzo that was announced also last month where when you initiate the payment, they give you 60 seconds. Are you sure that you want to send it? So those buffers, that's pretty cool, but that goes more on the product level instead of the stack. So you can play with that.

Bailey Reutzel (27:11):

Yeah, I really think we should have that for social media posts too, honestly, like a 62nd. Don't post this. Keep it to yourself. Maybe everything instant should not be. Please

Laura Yens (27:21):

Tell us the post that you regretted. Bailey.

Bailey Reutzel (27:25):

I cannot say I plead the fifth. I plead the fifth on that. I think we had another question over here.

Audience Member 2 (27:33):

This might have an obvious answer or you said it and I missed it of the bird, but why would there not be a federal mandate for banks to pick up real-time payments? Why would there not be What you were saying that there won't be a federal mandate, why

Laura Yens (27:51):

They don't have the authority to mandate.

Bailey Reutzel (27:54):

Because in America, we don't like getting told what to do.

(28:01):

Did you want to add?

Alex Gold (28:03):

No, I mean that's pretty much the gist, but the Federal Reserve doesn't have the power to mandate. And so I'm not a political expert, but I think it would actually require some sort of congressional act to say all banks have to adopt these payment rails. And I'm sure you can appreciate how much lobbying there would probably go against something like that.

Gretchen Rodriguez (28:25):

I just want to add that I think the recent announcement, the executive order about checks, stop issuing checks and all of that, that was kind of a light way of saying, oh look, this is a new generation, this is how you need to make payments from now on. But the reality is that checks are still being issued by customer and by consumers and businesses. 5.4 billion in both of them. But I like the way of introducing a new way of adopting payment, but very soft. Yeah.

Bailey Reutzel (28:55):

Yeah. Soft and subtle. One more question here.

Audience Member 3 (29:01):

Yes. Just following up on the mandate, I mean it would, can you speak up a little? Sorry. Following up on the mandate, it would have, I think on the interest of the banks to actually adopt instance payments a lot faster than what they are doing. So I would like to know because it was talked in the panel, we like credit cards. Yes. But credit card business model could crumble very fast. And we have saw that in other countries. Of course it's not the usage we have here, but they can crumble. And now that we have stable coins coming along, so it's not the banking sector being a little bit too late to the game to actually proactively go and get the instance payments.

Laura Yens (29:59):

Sure. I couldn't hear your question.

(30:01):

Clear enough.

Bailey Reutzel (30:02):

I think the question is like, and correct me if I'm wrong, the question is, are banks too late to adopt some of this instant payments? Yes.

Audience Member 3 (30:09):

Because they come to the assumption that the credit card model will be here forever. Maybe with all this innovation, with stable coins with other things, the critical model could crumble a lot faster than what banks are

Laura Yens (30:26):

Thinking about. I mean, I personally think it's going to be multiple payments technologies concurrently for several years because I think there are different use cases. I actually just thought of another use case for instant payments, which is real estate, real estate transactions. That's all done by wire. You're waiting for the wire to hit for your down payment or it's going to an escrow, right? So that's another really good use case for instant payments. But I think it's going to depend on first of all, generation shifting. So you have Gen Z coming up in the more digital native versus the older generations, which I am. So I think you have that shift happening. I think you have people just tend to use their credit cards. So understanding, okay, I use my credit card for this use case. I'll use one of these apps for another use case, a payment app for another use case, and I'll use a wire for the really big dollar amount I'm about to spend, right?

(31:23):

So I think it's just all these different use cases and it'll be concurrent for a really long time. I don't see cards going away that soon at all. And if you think about it, cards are what are powering the payments functionality within Apple Pay and all of the other wallet apps, you are literally loading your card in, it's still riding the network rails. So I think there is still a lot that's built on top of the card networks and it's going to take a really long time for that to be dismantled. And again, we still have instant payments in domestically. We haven't connected those internationally too much yet. Something that's just announced May 26th, 2025. So the Pan-Asian Instant Payments rail is coming together for five countries there sponsored by bis. So I think you see that starting to happen, but until it does and until there's such a use of all these systems more predominantly than cards, I think it's all going to be concurrent, including with stablecoin.

Bailey Reutzel (32:19):

You've got one sentence, you can do one sentence.

Alex Gold (32:21):

It is absolutely not too late to start adopting.

Bailey Reutzel (32:25):

And Gretchen one sentence only.

Gretchen Rodriguez (32:28):

Yes. So first you're bidding legacy and internal issues. Now you have to understand that the user behavior is changing, so you have to be there.

Bailey Reutzel (32:38):

Amazing. That was great. That was really fun. Applaud this great panel up here. And they'll be around for more questions if you got 'em.