Transcription:
Daniel Wolfe: (
Hi, I'm Daniel Wolfe with American Banker again, I'm not supposed to be here. The moderator that you may have seen on your agenda, Paul Davis, former colleague of mine, called in sick. And this is one of the many challenges we have of doing an event during a pandemic is, you know people still get sick. so I am jumping in, he gave me his notes, but I have not rehearsed this or anything. I am going to be just as surprised by everyone's answers as the rest of you. So, it's gonna be a wild time.
Alisa Ellis: (
So we might be surprised also.
Daniel Wolfe: (
I'm sorry
Alisa Ellis: (
I said we might be surprised also by how this goes.
Daniel Wolfe: (
Oh yeah, no, no. I'll throw you a few curve balls as well. I, yeah, no, this is, gonna be wild. All right. So I've introduced myself. I'm here with Catherine Pierce and Alisa Ellis. Why don't you introduce yourselves?
Cathryn Peirce: (
I'm Katherine Pierce co-founder and CEO of Carbon Zero Financial. We build out the technical infrastructure by which people can more effectively align their transactions with their values. For us. That's a focus on climate being able to measure, monitor, and offset your carbon footprint as you spend, but trying to make it easier to vote with your dollar, through innovative technology and data.
Alisa Ellis: (
Hi everybody. I'm Alisa Ellis. I lead innovation and emerging payments for Discover Global Network. The discover that, you know, in love and all the things we were coming up last panel, open banking, crypto, faster payments, digital identity. What do you do with that? That's basically what I focus on.
Daniel Wolfe: (
So we're gonna get a lot of the same questions during the Q and A is what you're saying.
Alisa Ellis: (
We might
Daniel Wolfe: (
All right. So the topic is career pivots to payments, and I think everyone in this room can attest that, career path is rarely a straight line. A lot of us are probably surprised at where we, how we got to where we are today, or even where we are today. I'm certainly surprised to be in Arizona but, I mean you know, this isn't about me, but I'll tell you right now that I was, I came to be a payments and technology reporter, not because I had any experience at all with it, but because I brought probably the weirdest portfolio to my job interview, I didn't know anything about banking, didn't know anything about payments, but I'd written a profile of a taxidermist, when I was in college. So I brought that with the pictures that I had taken of all these dead animals. And, they say to make yourself memorable in the job interview and that did it, and that worked. And they have not asked me to write about taxidermy ever since. So that's what I consider my pivot. So I don't know what your pivots are. So, why don't you get started? Tell us how you got into this industry and why you didn't think that was the path you were on, or maybe you did.
Cathryn Peirce: (
So my background was actually behavioral change, kind of helping people more effectively act on their values. And now we're adding to that act and transact according to their values. That started for me actually, while an undergraduate at the university of Pennsylvania on sexual violence prevention. So I was paid to go into fraternities and football teams to talk about the spectrum along which violence exists and how as a community, we can more effectively achieve goals, for a safer environment. And what we noticed is most of us do in fact have shared goals. most of us want our communities to be safe. Most of us want to sustain life on this planet in a hundred years. Most of us do in fact want similar things, but we don't consistently build systems around those shared intentions. And as such, we don't mobilize or scale solutions as effectively as we could. So, after graduating from Penn, I was a Fulbright scholar in ivory coast. They came out of a civil war in 2014. I was there in 2016. Again, how do we capitalize on existing frameworks, behaviors, etcetera, to achieve GA goals? after which I was a backpacker, definitely not in payments. I packed through Africa, Europe and Asia. And Reed Hastings, Netflix founder says after he was a peace Corps volunteer in Swaziland after hitchhiking through Africa, you know, starting a company didn't seem so scary. Well after hitchhiking through Africa, Europe in Asia alone, as a woman payments really didn't seem scary. I then was a director of marketing at a brokerage, looking at consumer behavior through the lens of data and understanding what insights we can glean from this to then inform consumer behavior drive kind of new behaviors in that. And now I'm applying that with climate. How do we use data? How do we use payments as a vehicle by which we can scale solutions more easily, to preserve people in planet?
Alisa Ellis: (
I don't think anybody can beat that story. I really don't. There is no backpacking through Africa in my journey. but I think I actually started closer, out to you Danielle. So I come from a journalism background actually. So magazine writing was my specialty and how the heck I ended up in payments and I think much closer to technology that I would say any kind of liberal arts. I think that's been a little bit of a mystery. so just, I think some somewhat serendipity, right? So my first job, out of college ended up at a consulting, firm, and it was everything including teaching myself how to code on the mainframe. So nothing that I was at all prepared for, but that idea of starting something new and figuring it out and wearing many hats, is something that my path has followed throughout. So it was from that to, roles in finance and strategy and eventually product development. So got into financial services and eventually from broader, kind of banking and issuing side pivoted into payments, as part of our network business. So somewhat circuitous, but maybe not nearly as wild and exciting ride.
Daniel Wolfe: (
So how did, how did your path then, how did your path might be different from somebody who started out in the payments industry or started on, on the path with your particular role in mind? How does your background inform your role in a way that might be different from somebody who didn't have the same background that you do?
Alisa Ellis: (
Yeah, no. And I think, I actually think maybe my background helps me every day in that there are people who've spent their entire career in payments. I work with many of them, right. Who have 20, 30 plus years experience. And they're very deep in industry and that's always great knowledge to have. I think what helps me is the ability to zoom out and look at it almost as a reporter at something that I'm studying. Right. So can I see kind of the component parts without being a deep expert in something, and then, um, help describe that to other people, because a lot of, writing is about that. Can I, give somebody a mental model that they can reference, right. As we're talking about new things, we just talked a lot about blockchain. What does that look like? having those points of reference I think is critical. And I think my journal and background actually helps me for my own mental picture, but also, be kind of that translator of new things, to our broader organization and others. So I think maybe studying payments, looking at it a little bit from the outside in, is helpful in that way.
Daniel Wolfe: (
And for you.
Cathryn Peirce: (
Yeah. for me, payments has always been how can this act as a vehicle for impact? So coming in with that perspective of how can we build new systems or what would it look like if we approach this as using this data to kind of better understand people and helping them vote with their dollar? I think what we're, most of what I'm discussing today on conscious consumerism, all of these things, it's very much a product of the focus and priority I had coming into this about how I wanted to use payments. So to that end, I think, um, my background in social impact, we would not have kind of the model we have with carbon zero financial, if it weren't for that emphasis on alignment of values and actions with your transactions. So, it's been wonderful. And again, there's also nothing you can't learn. There's such innovation in payments right now. We're all still learning and we will continue to be learning. And in another six months we will have to keep learning. So, I think rather than be kind of put off by perhaps a lack of formal experience in a field, come in with questions, curiosity, and you find that you get up to speed faster than you might have thought.
Daniel Wolfe: (
So the learning curve is always an interesting question. That's, we all look back on our histories and maybe some of the early decisions we made in our careers or the blunders we made and think, well, if I knew then what I know now. So that's my next question to you, if you knew then what you knew now how would that have informed your career decisions?
Cathryn Peirce: (
I think particularly, and given that this was, preceded by kind of women in payments. I think women in particular have a propensity to believe we have to 100% fit the bill to apply for that job or to take on that role or to contribute to that conversation. And if you come in with curiosity and with questions and are unafraid to acknowledge that, which you don't know, but also really bring and be kind of confident in that what you do and the perspective that you do have. There's so many more doors that open there's so many more or opportunities that come to light. And so for me, I wish from an earlier point, I was asking more questions. I was acknowledging what I didn't know, rather than like making a mental note, scurrying off, Googling it, finding out, coming back to the conversation. It's okay to not know everything. And there's power in being at peace with asking questions, continuing to learn and you do yourself a disservice to think that there's anything shameful about needing to continuing to learn. We're all going to continue learning. And the more that we embrace that I think the more successful your career ultimately is and the more effectively you can pivot when something like crypto comes along or blockchain or this or that, we don't have to fear it. Let's try and understand it. We'll just keep learning.
Alisa Ellis: (
No, that's a great answer. And I think, curiosity serves us well in any career, payments in particular, right? It's such a fast moving space. There's always so much going on. So part of what you were talking about Catherine, which is, if you actually do hear something, you don't have to scurry off, you can do it openly, but Google, right. Read something, listen to something, go to conferences like this and talk to people. Right. I think it's a, it's a key trait everywhere. I'm trying to think of you know what do I know now that I wouldn't have known then I think just how fascinating, right. I don't know that anybody grows up and is like, I want a career in payments but,
Cathryn Peirce: (
Movie star or payments
Alisa Ellis: (
Maybe you do. Right. But that, that's usually not on the radar when you ask kids, what do they wanna do when they grow up? But I think that the really cool part is but first of all, it's a real life application of technology. right. And I think payments to what you're talking about, Katherine is the ultimate consummation of intention, right? Somebody's interested in something, they vote with their dollars and payments makes that happen. So I just think the opportunity to participate in something that we all touch every day, as consumers, as members of society and being able to say, Hey, I'm part of that little magic that happens in microseconds, right? When whatever you intend to do something, we can make it happen. That's really cool.
Daniel Wolfe: (
I will say the payments industry is now the cool place to be. I, that wasn't always the case. I remember when I started this job and I, you know, said, oh, you know, I cover payments bank technology. People would say, oh, so what credit card should I get? And now they don't, they don't ask me that. They ask me about, you know, paying with their phone, paying with their wristwatch and, you know, crypto of course there's a lot more questions and curiosity out there as well. so
Alisa Ellis: (
If we just call ourselves that we all work for fintechs, I think we can up our cool factor just a little bit more.
Daniel Wolfe: (
Oh, absolutely. I don't even have to talk about taxidermy anymore for people to keep their interest. So, on your career path, I know we can all think of mentors, people who believed in us when we maybe didn't quite believe in ourselves or gave us a chance when we didn't think we were quite ready for it. And I'm wondering either in your current role or in your company, or anywhere along your career path, is there some mentor that you can talk about or some situation where somebody believed in you and how do you then pay it forward?
Cathryn Peirce: (
Absolutely. And there's several that come to mind and I, I almost wanna write, I say them all off, but I would say, two of our advisors in particular, rich Arnold, prior CFO of Charles Schwab activist and climate just has been such a kind of amazing source of endorsement and encouragement and particularly having more veteran, and established executives, looking to the next generation and saying like, we're gonna do it. I believe in you. That is it. It does so much more than I think you realize. So, that Marron Costa who's a climate activist was previously at Amazon. Now with Microsoft stood up for warehouse workers' rights and climate during the pandemic, she's been a phenomenal source, but I would also even say there's one person. When I was younger, I ran for kind of vice president of something. Well, as at university, didn't have something Eliza university and someone came up to me and said, okay, you got that good job.
Cathryn Peirce: (
You should have run for president. And I think particularly for women, it's not even a lot of mentorship for me, that's been valuable is saying what you're doing might be prestigious, but if you are capable of more, if you wanted more and you settled then for that second tier or you settled for what you thought was the safest bet that is still a disservice to your ultimate potential. And so I would kind of say that to everyone in the room, it might look prestigious. You might think, well, that's the safer bet, but if it's still less than you're capable of, if it's less than you want, then it's not enough go for the bigger one. and I'm so grateful. I've had mentors say that to me.
Alisa Ellis: (
No, that's a great perspective. Catherine, I think when I think about mentors in my career, several come to mind, I think in different stages, that have, have helped me in a variety of ways. So, two have been bosses, which has been, a great privilege of mine. I've worked for great people. one, Daniel ARD, who was you know, a Marine officer by background. And he's taught me a ton about, um, how to lead teams and how to be part of a great team. And really, we were a very small group that started kind of a payments first. we introduced, kind of a new to the world debit product at the time. And it was really five people who had no background in it, but saw the opportunity and just worked really hard. And I think by saying of course you can do it right.
Alisa Ellis: (
We're all gonna figure it out together. I think that was the first person. The second person is somebody who hired me at discover almost now 11 years ago. And, who's an entrepreneur and is just, a great, forward thinker and, uh, things that he put on the table as things for us to think about. I think even now 11 years later, I pull out that list sometimes that I'm, we've checked many boxes, but not all boxes on that list. and again, somebody who was just, and that was my first job really in payments to say, if you bring your curiosity and if you bring that attitude, right, yes, we can figure that out. And that job has changed so many times. And one of the most important, mentors and really sponsors in my career has been Diane Rines, who is actually president of discover global network.
Alisa Ellis: (
So she's the head of our payments business. And I had a privilege early in my career, to be her chief of staff and really got to know her through that process. And then, kind of graduated from that role to be a leader within her organization and her mentorship of support is it's very powerful in its quiet way and that she puts you in the situations that maybe you're a little bit uncomfortable at, but gives you that push and that visibility. And she projects her confidence that you know, that is my expert, right? If you have a question, go ask Lisa, and that does a ton, to bring confidence, in other people in you and your ability in what you have to say, and you have to step up to that challenge. So I've been very privileged to have these people in my life. And, still do I feel like I wouldn't be here as a payments geek today, working in this business, if it wasn't for the three of them.
Cathryn Peirce: (
Payments rockstar
Daniel Wolfe: (
Absolutely. Oh my goodness. So, the just in terms of how to pay it forward as well, these discussions I've found in past years have really taught me a lot about leadership. Diane being one of our past honorees and other honorees have had, I've heard them answer some questions in surprising ways. I remember when I first became a boss, I had people ask me, so what happens if somebody who works for you asks you to be a reference for a job they're applying for somewhere else. And I thought, I do not want to deal with that. So, but one of our past honoraries, who's gonna be here, on a panel later this week, Ginger Schmeltzer, who's at MasterCard now. She said, oh, I would absolutely give that person a great reference.
Daniel Wolfe: (
I wanna see them succeed. And the reason being, you know, one day I may be working for her. So there's, there's a good point that, you know, everyone's career is fluid and you wanna make sure everybody has that opportunity and, and you lift them up because someday you may need the same from them. And frankly, even if you don't need the same from them, it's still, you know, a good thing to do. So in terms of leadership advice unconventional, or conventional, what would, what would either of you want to share here as you so like the one thing you learned as a boss, or just along your way that somebody did for you that you'd wanna pass on to others. At least do you wanna start?
Cathryn Peirce: (
Yeah.
Daniel Wolfe: (
Oh, I'm sorry.
Alisa Ellis: (
No, sure.
Alisa Ellis: (
I think the point is that no matter where you are and the people that you've worked with, they're part of your network forever. So I think that's keeping that in mind and what I particularly enjoy certainly spending time with my current team as a previous panelist was mentioning and learning a lot in those person to person interactions. But there are people who were on my teams previously, who are sometimes at the same company. And as you said, who've left the companies and taking the time to keep in touch and have those conversations and provide career paths you know, any kind of personal questions that they might have about you know, life is turbulent nowadays. So people might have questions, but I think making time for people that you've come across in a variety of ways I think is key, right? It's not about what you might need from that, but I think it enriches your perspective. And if that's an opportunity to make somebody successful, to feel like they have your vote of confidence, I think that's the least you can do.
Cathryn Peirce: (
I often come back to people will remember how you made them feel. And I think that also is if you leave someone feeling like they're have a little more, their chins, a little higher, that they think they're a little more capable. Now that one person saw potential or one that's incredibly powerful. And I think that we've all echoed that someone believing in you can be a very transformative moment and really start to increase kind of your own vision for the future. So for me, it's really being mindful of how we speak to people and what's kind of the undertone. How do we actually communicate with them? I think there's a lot of EQ work in leadership that it goes kind of understated and it's quite important. How do we make people feel about themselves and their potential and their abilities beyond which though, even just explicitly asking, how can I be helpful?
Cathryn Peirce: (
I loved no really in this moment, what do you need next? What are you looking to do next? What do you wanna learn next, giving actual kind of creating the opportunity for me to receive action items? what is it that you need that could be helpful? because sometimes it is, it's an intro where it's this or that, but giving people the, okay to ask for help to ask for something specific suddenly can really actually get them to be far more vocal about what it is they're trying to learn or achieve, etcetera. So I like to give get ask a lot of questions, but essentially get very direct answers. What do you want from me? What do you need? and then all the, while just being as encouraging as possible, because you never know in what capacity that kind of lights the fluid underneath them to dream bigger and do bigger. And again, maybe one day that benefits you, but otherwise, maybe you just help someone believe a bit more in themselves.
Daniel Wolfe: (
So on the subject of career pivots into payments, is there an area right now where somebody may be bringing a specific background that you're looking for? Some, where are you looking for a more nontraditional hire?
Alisa Ellis: (
Maybe I can start, I think from a payments perspective, right? It's primarily a B2B business or B2B to see business. So I think there is a great opportunity to start looking at our payments partners as customers. And I know many of you will say we do that already, but we do it much more intuitively in a consumer in a consumer space and bringing that same focus to payments partnerships and thinking through partner journeys. Again, if you are sitting in the consumer banking perspective, you go, of course I do that all day long. But bringing that into the payments business, making sure we're designing interactions we're designing onboarding processes. We are designing kind of our mechanisms of engaging with other businesses in a way you would treat customers so that skillset may not be grounded in core understanding of payments or technology, but very much a needed one, I think, in the business in a great add to any organization.
Cathryn Peirce: (
Yeah, I think we are carbon zero financial is a climate FinTech, all of which sounds very academic and technical, etcetera. So humanizing these things. Okay. How do we talk to people about this? How do we talk to banks about this? so to that end, I would actually say FinTech is there's a strong need for storytelling for kind of the ability to communicate these concepts, to take complex dynamics and boil it down to action items or understand both frameworks. But, my more general kind of in terms of just pivoting, I always start with what are the problems I care about? What are the things that I talk about in my free time? What are the things I actually like kind of light a fire in me. Okay. What are my sets? What do I actually enjoy doing in my day to day?
Cathryn Peirce: (
What are, in what way do I contribute? And when you start to kind of intersect those two, there is opportunity. Again, I fell into payments because I thought it was a really effective vehicle for scaling solutions for ESG kind of measures. You absolutely can contribute. You have something to contribute, but start first and foremost, what is my professional kind of skillset and what are my personal values and passions. And before, you know, it, you come almost written a job description. So give yourself almost credit for what you do know, and then finding relevance pertinent, and in what capacity that contributes to payments, there's always going to be someway that your distinct background perspective, etcetera, adds value.
Daniel Wolfe: (
So before we jump into audience questions, I'm gonna throw in one of those curve balls, not in the script I was given. So here we go. The one thing that I thought was actually like promising about the whole remote work thing that we did for the past couple of years, was that it put a lot of our remote people on equal footing. A lot of the, like my entire team was already remote, except for me, I was the only one in our New York office. And I always wanted to make sure that their achievements were seen by, you know, the higher ups who are based in New York and when nobody was based in New York and everybody was based in a little window on, on a computer zoom call, then everybody's square was the exact same size. Nobody had any more or less visibility. And I thought that was, you know a good way to kind of you know balance the scales.
Daniel Wolfe: (
And now that we're going back to hybrid and people are going back into the office, you I personally have that worry that, you know, there's gonna be that issue of visibility. Those of us who can make it into the office might have a little more of an advantage. Maybe, maybe not versus the vast number of people we hired over the course of the pandemic without caring where they're based. So I'm wondering, how do you address that particularly in terms of career advancement, make sure that the people who aren't remote may not have the same opportunity for FaceTime still have the same opportunity for mentorship, for career advancement, that sort of thing.
Cathryn Peirce: (
Why? I love data I think getting clear about the KPIs by which you actually assess performance. It's so easy for us to be biased by the interpersonal skills of one individual, or they tell the better jokes, etcetera. None of which is actually indicative of their performance. So I think being very clear and even to your teams, making sure everyone is on the same page, how are we assessing this? and even making that an engaging process, such that they too can say, well, these are kind of the things that we are working on, and these are kind of what we would perceive to be fair standards, but as long as you standardize that, make it available and clear to everyone that everyone knows how exactly they are, the expectations and how they can move forward. And then really relying on that data.
Cathryn Peirce: (
I also love, I mean, there's different VCs, for example, who really are kind of trying as much as possible to make it a blind process by which people initially pitch, how do we cut out biases by relying more heavily on data, on relying more heavily on these kind of blind performance metrics? So I do, I welcome the use of technology across the board to create fair systems. And I think one opportunity for that is in the workplace and just ensuring that your own kind of likes dislikes biases towards different professionals are not what advances or curtails someone else's professional development. So stick as many KPIs based in data and numbers as possible. And also even then just, I think it's very important to get way in from the teams themselves. Who's helpful on your team, who's collaborative who's instead of just kind of looking down, looking kind of within the team and making sure that there's kind of way in there. I think peers very often have tremendous insights on the performance and leadership potential of the people with whom they work.
Alisa Ellis: (
No, I think that's a great answer. I think mine is gonna be maybe a little touch, more tactical, right. And kind of in the I think you have to create those opportunities for people to showcase themselves. And that can be as easy as re-looking at your team's schedule. Right? So if we have checkings with a boss, right. Or opportunities to present, do we do that on a monthly basis, rotate the teams, put somebody else in the presenter spot, wherever they might be in the world physically or otherwise. Right. Do we create periodically I think opportunities for people to come together in person. So we are realizing that right. We've hired people in the last two years. Who've never been to the home office nor have they met any people with whom they work in person. Right. That's a tremendously different experience from somebody who's been there for 10 years, who just said, Hey, and now I'm in hiatus, right?
Alisa Ellis: (
Or, it's been a change. So I think we are gonna find some opportunities for people to come together. It may not be right. Five days a week, three days a week, four days a week. It will be periodically encouraging for people to make those connections in person when they can. So when we are remote, we have those, those personal moments to relate to. But I think being really intentional about scheduling those opportunities for virtual FaceTime, if you will. And, making sure that as Catherine was saying, it's not who who's the first to raise their hand, but who's the quietest voice. And do you ask them right to step out of their comfort zone because I know that they're gonna do great given that opportunity.
Daniel Wolfe: (
Okay. So, one or two questions before refreshment break, anybody want to grab the mic or are you all really hungry and thirsty?
Daniel Wolfe: (
Ooh, here we go.
Audience 1: (
Hey, good morning everyone. My name is Ravi chopali. I represent Silicon valley bank. we have an office in Tempe based out of Santa Clara. So question to you is you know, we talk about behavioral experiences and user experiences, how important and how the UX and the customer experience and the user journeys are driving your investment into building the blocks to support that. I mean, how your top down approach to everything that you do in the payments area from a UX, user journey's perspective.
Alisa Ellis: (
Yeah. Oh! Go.
Cathryn Peirce: (
For us, again, for, particularly with behavioral change, it's do people even understand with what the things they're engaging with? So our technology, we can make it so that when you open up, we sell to banks, it's B2B. But you can look up your transaction history in the bank and the app as it would. So, to that end the user experience is actually still going to be native to the banks with whom we're working. We lease our technology. What we add, however, is kind of insight on, all right, how do most effectively gamify this? So next year transactions, now there's a carbon impact for each transaction, such that you understand the behavior and the impact after which we you can exercise credit card rewards through our technology towards offsetting. And we can also connect you to sustainable marketplace based on the type of shopping you like to do to get you to make better behaviors for us though, where we can kind of add a little bit more color is okay, how do we kind of make this a more social experience?
Cathryn Peirce: (
So for example, even Spotify has, this is how you listened at the end of each year, kind of custom data on your engagement with their app. We have, this is how you offset, understanding and engaging with, oh, wow, these are the projects I've invested in to lower my carbon impact, etcetera. So there's somewhat minimal opportunity given that we are B2B and white label service, however, where there are things specific to the value, what that we're providing, or the kind of technology we're providing. And we can infuse that with a little bit more, um, for us, it's very much about making it intuitive, making it clear and also making it engaging. So, what would make a person want to open their banking app more often than they usually do? What would make a person want to kind of engage with these metrics? What might even make a person want to share the something that they've coming from their banking app. So gamifying and socializing that experience based on what we already have perceived to work on. Other apps such as Spotify, such as you don't necessarily have to reinvent the wheel, but applying some of these successful user experiences to what we're working on has been helpful for us. But unfortunately in our case, we're again, B2B. So, we're not building that whole experience.
Alisa Ellis: (
Yeah. But I think from a B2B perspective, and that's kind of where I was going earlier to me, I think an important audience is the developer, right? So in many cases there is, these are the partners that we work with. So, payments is usually very complex and it's distribution lots of different companies involved, lots of different partners wearing different hats. So what they now all have in common is that there is usually a set of developers on the other end, who are looking to consume your experience, how fast can they build it into their own payment application? How can they engage with it? How intuitive or how interactive is your demo, is your product documentation, etcetera. I know it that sounds kind of more Perza, but I think that's the audience. We need to start thinking about how to engage with and recognize as an explicit customer set and someone to work towards in terms of knowing their journey and servicing that journey.
Daniel Wolfe: (
So, I'm sorry. I do believe we're out of time. Although I do think I saw like one or more hand go up, so feel free after the session to corner any one of us with your questions. but, I won't keep you from the refreshment break. Thank you again, everyone for joining us.