From Mentoring to More Representative Recruitment Strategies: How to Diversify a Male-Dominated Industry

Kate Fitzgerald, Senior Editor, American Banker; Kim Fitzsimmons, Chief Executive Officer, Talus Pay

Transcription:

Kate Fitzgerald: (00:07)
I'm Kate Fitzgerald. I'm with American Banker and we have here my possibly distant cousin, Kim Fitzsimmons, we're arguing over monograms actually earlier. And we are, this is probably one of my favorite topics and very interesting in payments and banking is, and that's why we're having the, our whole focus here about women in payments does hinge on how to cope, how to lead and how to diversify in a male dominated industry. And we were gonna have, we have Val Greer. She is a chief operating officer with BR formerly Alliance data. And we've, we already had a discussion with her and she unfortunately was, knock out by exposure to COVID. But I actually, I'm gonna reference some of the things she said, Kim is CEO at Talus Pay. Kim. You wanna tell us what Talus Pay? What, do you do there?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (01:04)
Sure. So, we are merchant acquiring entity, so a very small processor, I was talking to Lisa earlier from discover I've kind of gone back and forth between the small companies and enjoying the speed boat versus the large companies. So right now I'm, at Talus Pay.

Kate Fitzgerald: (01:21)
How long have you, how long have you been CEO?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (01:24)
It will be two years in July.

Kate Fitzgerald: (01:26)
Were you ever a CEO before?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (01:28)
I was, oh, I was, yes.

Kate Fitzgerald: (01:30)
All right. So

Kim Fitzsimmons: (01:31)
There was about five and a half years in between CEO roles where I went to JP Morgan chase.

Kate Fitzgerald: (01:39)
So I happen to remember from your, their profile that we earlier did that when you got started you, how would you say you got up what we call the first, the very first rung in your career that led to being a leader?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (01:51)
So it's a funny story because well, first of all, just getting the job, my kids always ask, like, how did you know you were gonna be in payments? And I said, I don't know, I needed a job. And I answered a want ad. And they're like, what is that? So, my first foray into actually managing was, I gave him my resignation. So I was in sales and I gave my resignation because I knew I wanted to be on the other side. And I wanted to lead, a team of people as opposed to being an individual contributor. So as I gave my resignation, my boss's boss called me, and said, I'd like to talk to you tomorrow morning and said, I hear you want to be in management. And so he created a position.

Kate Fitzgerald: (02:37)
Wow. Yeah. And why did he decide to do that for you? What have any idea what, what it was that was happening at his end?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (02:44)
I have no idea, really have no idea what prompted him because I'd only been there six months. So it wasn't like we had a strong working relationship. I wasn't top sales. I was good, but I wasn't like the best, I have

Kate Fitzgerald: (02:59)
Idea. He must have seen something in you.

Kim Fitzsimmons: (03:01)
I think so, I think it might have been the first time I interviewed with him he asked me it was on a, I'll never forget it was on a Thursday. I was right out to college and he offered me this job and said I need you to start. And we have training Saturday morning at the quality Inn. And I was horrified because I thought, first of all, I have a college degree and who's gonna do training at the quality in, and so I turned him down. Wow. Yeah. So maybe it was that but then I got called back two weeks later and I really needed a job.

Kate Fitzgerald: (03:35)
So in the, payments industry, I've, we've been writing about it for years and we like to think that it's, it's constantly opening up to women and it is also is. And other people have described its evolution. Would you say it's still male dominated or how would you reflect on the last, you know, decades that you've been in it?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (03:57)
So I think it's come a long way. I do think it's still, very male dominated, it's it's just a fact, right? So it's an evolution, but we're making progress, I go back and I think about, you know, the time at five and a half years at JP Morgan chase, there is a concerted effort there to diversify. And I think that's the first step is that organizations have to make it a priority, to have a diverse slate of executives.

Kate Fitzgerald: (04:28)
Yeah. We see this in banking as well. The, you know, the push toward more women, we have, we have the most powerful women in banking, which is gaining momentum continuously with more women rising into management, but it's still very male dominated, especially at large banks and payments is highly technical and there is a real SL toward technical careers still, which is another. Do you think that's keep that that's one reason that keeps women out?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (04:52)
I think so I'm the least technical person ever cut and paste is about as technical as I get, which drives my, CTO nuts. I'm like, it's just cut and paste. Isn't that what an API is cut and paste drives him nuts. But, I do think from a technology standpoint, if you look at education, most of our daughters are not going into that technical type career set, so it starts there, and then I think the other thing, somebody mentioned it in a previous session, was the fact that women typically, we don't have confidence if we don't know everything, technology wise, he could probably fool me. I have to trust him. I have to trust that he knows what he's doing very slim to the CFO. Like, I don't know how to, yeah. Do a balance sheet.

Kate Fitzgerald: (05:45)
Actually. I think the comment was the comment was that, women felt like they didn't wanna apply for a job if they didn't have 100% of the, exactly of the qualifications. And I think that men generally feel less concerned about that, which is another thing we discussed, which was a lot of women in leadership. Talk about this trap of perfectionism that we fall into. And if I could just do a show of hands, maybe if you're not, if you're willing to say so, would you say that you men, male or female, have you felt in your life like you, if you made a mistake, you might lose your job or your job be at risk. How many people have ever felt like that? Cuz I know I have. And at the same time, I think there are people, maybe it's not just men and women, but it's a mindset that if you do make a mistake and you're attacked for it, do you let that destroy you? Or do you let it roll off? I'm gonna suggest that a lot of men are a little less they're they have thicker skin and women are, they tend to be very detail oriented and meticulous and they're worried, oh my God, I got, you know, 99%, not a hundred I'll be fired. So, how can you relate to that? Or tell me if you've seen that.

Kim Fitzsimmons: (06:55)
I've seen it a lot. I can't personally relate to it. I don't know if it's the red hair, but I tend to be a little bit stubborn, I've been told a lot that I probably think more like a man because I don't feel like I have to be perfect, I rely on building a good team a good diverse teamcand that's not just gender ethnic, but also diversity of thought. So I think that's extremely important, in whatever role you are in that you have diverse people around you. So I've always relied on that, but I have seen it a lot, a lot where women are just afraid to lean in and take certain roles and risks and

Kate Fitzgerald: (07:38)
Yeah, it's hard to know where, where that starts and how we undo it. I think maybe we're coming further in society in that people are more open about their, you know, it's a, it's okay. Not to be perfect. We're getting closer to that. And then of course the diversity of thought is really interesting, cuz as much as I, I do think there are a lot of really interesting skills differences that individuals can have and they sometimes fall along these lines. But for example, my boss and I, first of all, he's much younger and he, and that's interesting because I didn't have a problem reporting to someone who was younger, but he's much smarter than I am in many ways. And but we have different perspectives and here's one example. I didn't even know him well. And we went to a conference and didn't know that we were each thinking that we were covering the same session. So he was in one part of the room I was in the other, I didn't know it was a big room. We, we both took notes afterward. We, I said, well, I'm gonna write that up. He said, well, I was gonna write it up. So we both wrote it up and got a completely different stories,

Kim Fitzsimmons: (08:36)
Completely different type

Kate Fitzgerald: (08:37)
Of I, a completely different themes that he got out of it. That happens a lot. What

Kim Fitzsimmons: (08:41)
Was the session about?

Kate Fitzgerald: (08:42)
Can't remember,

Kim Fitzsimmons: (08:44)
He might remember. No I

Kate Fitzgerald: (08:46)
Don't but whatever it is, he locks onto completely different things. And then, you know, we have such different perspectives in terms of our interests and in our mindset. And, if you can tap that that's diversity of thought it is right. Do you see that in your teams? You look

Kim Fitzsimmons: (09:02)
For that. I do look for it, so if you think about educational background geography, you have to think about where if you have everybody that's graduated from Harvard and Yale, you're probably not gonna get that much diversity of thought on your team. So I do look for different experiences and different backgrounds. You know, my head of sales right now has an operational background. Like he was in operations, which I told him was sad for him because while the CTO and the C might be able to fool me, he can't however he, you

Kate Fitzgerald: (09:36)
Know, but so, trying to pull people forward in these teams is another, is another challenge. And in a male dominated in industry we've seen where heavy, heavy technology. And, and, do you feel like we're getting, we, you tell me about some situations where you felt like the men weren't letting you in either to the room or the discussion has that happened?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (10:00)
Again, it probably hasn't happened to me, but I've witnessed it in board rooms where the men will be in a corner talking about golf over the weekend or some sporting event that they all watched that was important to them. And the women were on the other side talking about what was important to them, I always tended to go towards, I don't play golf. I do now, but not any good. I always watched ESPN because I wanted to be able to be in the conversation.

Kate Fitzgerald: (10:31)
Interesting.

Kim Fitzsimmons: (10:32)
Right. So it, but most of the it's still very separated in just general breakout conversations. If

Kate Fitzgerald: (10:41)
You've ever been to money 20, 20, you'll find there are a lot of men congregating at the bar and I've heard people say, meet me at this bar. This is where all the ideas and the people meet and mentor. But if you're a woman by yourself, are you really gonna go to the bar and by yourself and hang out and try to shoulder your way into where these guys are forming the bonds that are gonna lead to the next IPO?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (11:01)
Yeah. Most of us would not, but I encourage you to do it, you have to be where decisions are being made and if that's what's happening, which is what's happening at events like money 20, 20, you have to go there.

Kate Fitzgerald: (11:16)
Well, it's very interesting perspective. Yeah. So talking about the, building the skills for leadership, your boss identified something in you, the fearlessness or whatever it is that you have. And, but what about, how are you working within your own organization? If you see that you want, are you getting enough women that are rising up or how do you pull women forward?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (11:39)
So, it's interesting cuz we were talking about how typically traditional organizations, it was HR marketing were the female roles, right, I tend to think about how can I pull people out?, So the gentleman that was, is now over sales was over literally everything except finance and technology. And I pulled it out and two women that were reporting to him, leveled them up, gave them huge roles and you know, he had a much smaller role, but I was pushing him out of his comfort zone and leveling up some of the females, it was also interesting when I got there, the, compensation was dramatically different.

Kate Fitzgerald: (12:21)
And do you think that's common?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (12:24)
I think it is common. I, I do think sadly it's more common and I don't mean it was a little bit different,

Kate Fitzgerald: (12:31)
Well you had a unique ability to change that in many organizations, women might feel frustrated by that. And I think, do you have any thoughts on where we're going or what, what works, what might work to try to bring more transparency and fairness to where people feel like that's not happening?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (12:47)
Yeah. So it's hard because you don't really know. Right. So you may suspect that there may be some inequality. So it's hard to really know because you, people shouldn't be discussing things like incentive compensation and you know, compensation at all, they do I just say, you know, people that I mentor you need to constantly be thinking and moving up in an organization, not getting stagnant in the same role, which again, I think goes back to women being comfortable. I've done the same role for three years. I know it. I'm comfortable here get outta your comfort zone. And when I say move up, I don't mean up the ladder. I just mean out to your comfort zone. It could be a lateral move in another department, press yourself because that is how you continue to elevate your earning potential and you know, kind of validate some things. So just pushing

Kate Fitzgerald: (13:43)
Well over the last couple of years, we've all heard a lot about equity. And I noticed that one of the things that's happening there is a push to disclose salaries in many cases at organizations in government level. And this is an interesting thing it's going to, when the tide goes out to find out were things fair are things fair. And I think, do you think that women might benefit from this in terms of their organizational opportunities?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (14:08)
Yeah, I, think women would benefit. I don't know that it's the right thing to do overall for organizations because I can imagine the amount of hours that people will be spending now, just having conversations of why the distinction, you know, why you're less than another person. So I don't know, overall, I do think in the initial, out of the gate, it would benefit women, but in the long run, I'm not sure it's the right thing to do.

Kate Fitzgerald: (14:35)
So another thing we touched on in our discussion with Val was having a family and how that changes things for women. And you're, there have been a lot of changes in the way men have paternity leave and men help. And there's a more flexibility even with the pandemic. We, we heard every day about the awareness that people saw of other people's roles. I dunno, roles changing. There were men that stayed home for the first time. Right. And took care of kids. Well, their wife went off to work maybe, or but within that the, what do you have to say? I mean, do you think that women face bigger challenges trying to move into leadership positions if they wanna try to have a family and is anything changing around that?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (15:20)
So I think it's, one of the things that I think contributes to it is first of all, men can't have children. You can't give birth. So women, we have that ability and then you have the bond. And then I think it's an individual choice, right? So a lot of women will think I have to keep going. I have to wait to have children a, so I get my career to certain levels. Then, you know, maybe you're putting off a family or B I, you know, wanna have children, but then I'm risking my career. You kind of lay low it's, it's a choice though. So I do tell young women, especially that it's your decision. So don't pass up on something that you feel you want to do just because you're career driven. You can always, I didn't travel as much. So it's not that I put my career on hold, but I didn't take roles that caused me to travel until my kids were of a certain age. So I didn't put the breaks on it, but I kind of decisioned what

Kate Fitzgerald: (16:25)
I did, but that could hold you back in certain, companies, perhaps it could, it could, if everyone else was traveling, I could see how that would hold you off. You'd miss you

Kim Fitzsimmons: (16:33)
Miss out. It depends on the role, right? You have to pick and choose or look, you have to have a good partner. I mean, I know several women in the industry that are senior that quite frankly, their spouses stay home.

Kate Fitzgerald: (16:49)
So I worry about women getting a message now that if they do decide to have children that somehow they'll lose their job. And I think that message is in the air because people are considering choices about when to have children, but it really shouldn't be something. I mean, feel like if any woman at any age feels like she, her career would be derailed if she had a child, I do you feel like we have a long way to go in America before we reach the point where people feel I can do all of this?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (17:18)
Yeah. I don't know that it's, an fact that the crew would be derailed. I think it's something that we have in our own mindset. Right? So a female's mind, we kind of create things, I do think one of the positives that came out of the pandemic was maybe both spouses and partners working at home and balancing it and seeing what it's like to have a full time career plus take care of the kids and get 'em here and there that a lot of men were now helping with that because they were there front and center and it wasn't just a forgiven. So I do think that's a positive. I think that it's more equal now in the, at the home.

Kate Fitzgerald: (17:58)
Well, I think as, as we, as there is a greater discussion of all these topics, hopefully it will become more of a, I don't know an option for people. They, they won't feel limited by, by what their choices, although I don't think it's ever gonna be an easy solution. And, so I wanted to talk about actually we, Val's not here, but she told an interesting story about women helping women obviously you mentioned earlier, your first mentor, this man who persisted. Yes. He saw something in you. He dragged you to the sales thing. He wouldn't let you quit the, and that's, that was a man. Obviously he made a big difference in your career, Val said she had been working and she worked at some large organizations and at Citibank at one point for many years, but earlier in her career, she went to work with I think she had the impression she was doing well.

Kate Fitzgerald: (18:50)
And she went to meet with one of her, her bosses who was a woman and they were gonna sit down and she was expecting to find out all the things she was doing. Right. And the woman said, well, here is the list of things you're doing wrong. It was really long. But she, instead of being insulted by that she decided, and the way the woman presented it to her, she said it was the best thing that ever happened to her. And if she said, if more women could open themselves up to a kind of system, well constructive. Yes, How do you, how do you see that and what do you do along those lines with your people?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (19:22)
So the gentleman that we were talking about, I never really got mentoring or coaching from him. What I got was a lot of responsibility and I think that's what it was like. He just kept giving me more and more because he knew I would just take it and do it, take it and do it execute. And so he just kept giving me more and more, but I never really got the coaching, that I wanted. And so I actually went out on my own and I hired a executive coach. And it was interesting because at first, I mean, when I walked in and met her the first time and she shook my hand, she did one of these. She said, your shoes are too pointy. You're this and that, blah, blah, blah. You know, where'd you get that suit like really? It

Kate Fitzgerald: (20:07)
Was, and that's something he wouldn't have told you about your pointy shoes? No, no, no.

Kim Fitzsimmons: (20:10)
Okay. No, absolutely not. But it was interesting because she, we talked about things that, I never even thought about, like how to sit and present yourself in the boardroom, how to lean in, like you're acting. And we don't think about it like that, but you're playing a part in acting and your tone and the way you lean into the table and the way you, you know, just carry yourself. It's an act, it's an act in the boardroom. And I never thought about it like that.

Kate Fitzgerald: (20:43)
So how do you, what kind of thing, what are you with the women in your organization and how do you if there's something that they need correction on, what's happening with the women helping women in your organization?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (20:56)
So it, ours is small company right now. So I do, make sure that there's the women networking and electronic transaction, local events in Dallas, that all of the local women go participate and attend. I think it's important for them to meet other women in the space and to just talk amongst themselves, and then I do give immediate feedback whether it's male or female, I mean, it's just feedback and the way you wrap it and present it, I think is really it's all in the delivery.

Kate Fitzgerald: (21:27)
Right? So in, in a large organization, drawing in what Val told us about Citi, where she came from Citibank huge organization, right. That there were, there are a lot of you know, employee resource groups and more and more, it's an, it's a very, evolving area, I think. And I don't know that we have figured it out because I think that there's for a small organization, a large one, you're gonna have different priorities, right. She she's now has moved to, bread where I think that she said there are, it's a very male dominated company

Kim Fitzsimmons: (22:05)
Cuz it's tech

Kate Fitzgerald: (22:06)
Right. Has a tech heavy development heavy. So Val is an interesting, in, in an interesting position there in trying to find women to to, you know, lead, if you're, if you're trying to help a woman get a, you know, per perceive herself as a leader where maybe she never saw that before, what thoughts do you have about how women could help, you know, pass the Baton?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (22:31)
Yeah, I think, look, it's about recruitment, right? So we were talking about some solutions and you know, it is about making sure that you, when you go to fill a position, you have a diverse slate, you can't have diversity. If the people that you're interviewing the candidate slate, you've got 10 applicants and one is a female and one is, you know, ethnically diverse and the rest are not, there's no way you're gonna fill, your diversity boxes, so I think that's the first thing is having it, making sure whatever you do, you have

Kate Fitzgerald: (23:05)
A, you're drawing from a diverse

Kim Fitzsimmons: (23:06)
Pool, you drawing from a diverse pool.

Kate Fitzgerald: (23:08)
And then what was that? You were telling us about some new strategies to see they're helping that.

Kim Fitzsimmons: (23:13)
So we're trying some different things, again, it's a small company, but doing things there's online types interviewing where it's no, you just send out questions to the applicants. So you don't see that who they are, you don't, there's nothing, you don't want them to share any personal information. So the questions that you're asking are very, you know, we make sure that the verbiage is, you know, gender neutral and ethnically neutral as much as possible and that they answer those. And so your first round of interview, you really don't have any idea

Kate Fitzgerald: (23:47)
Who that's a new direction, a huge new direction of finding out

Kim Fitzsimmons: (23:51)
Yeah, there it's new, but, it is the first kind of, there are different technologies, I guess, is the main thing. Right?

Kate Fitzgerald: (23:58)
Well, in the, in the payments area, there have been a lot of challenges around well, it's a very diverse industry. We have a lot of ethnic diversity, I think, but we also have, difficulty getting people from you know, young people to want to go into payments and women. Now I was talking to some people beforehand hear about, that we always hear about women encouraging women to join these stem, you know, areas of study. What is your thought on that? Do you feel like we need is that what's holding women back not having the right skills?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (24:35)
Well, I think that starts right. Most of our daughters don't want to, you know, they're not interested in mathematics and technology and you know, so how do you get them interested early?

Kate Fitzgerald: (24:50)
Or do they need to be, I mean, we heard earlier today from our discovery, we do differently, right? A journalist who's now at the cutting edge of, payments innovation. So perhaps maybe they don't need to be in stem. I don't know. And maybe more women are going into those areas. Although I think the there's still a barrier to, of entry in some fields, if it's financial or if it's software development, this is a problem because you're gonna try to build, you're trying to build and promote women, right. In areas that are of, I feel like there there's, we still need a lot of there needs to be some ladders for women up the organization and you're dealing with a smaller company, but

Kim Fitzsimmons: (25:30)
Smaller company. But, I remember the conversation with my daughter and sometimes you have to have Frank conversations and she was young, I mean, middle school age. And she was, you know, you know, talking about wanting to be a teacher. She wanted to be a fourth grade teacher. I'm like, that's nice, blah, blah, blah, blah. So then it came time. Now she's in high school, we're going to look at universities and she wants to go to all these private schools in the Northeast and this and that. And so we sat down and basically had a Frank conversation about return on your investment this is what you will make. And if you want to be a fourth grade teacher still, that's lovely. These are the in-state schools. You may attend and go knock yourself out. If you wish to actually have a career and do something else, then let's talk about that.

Kate Fitzgerald: (26:18)
What did she end up study?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (26:20)
So she, is now graduated with her. Master's from Penn, undergrad in Alabama, which we don't talk about, but master's at in business at Penn, which swore she would never get a business degree of any kind and her doctorate in clinical psychology. Right. Gosh. Yeah. It's funny. In the last year she said, I think I wanna get my law degree too. I said, no, no, no.

Kate Fitzgerald: (26:42)
No. Did you say she's involved in some recruitment management stuff?

Kim Fitzsimmons: (26:46)
Yeah, it's, it's interesting. She does executive coaching, organizational design change management. So she, works for a consulting firm that helps other organizations through these processes, I get a lot of free executive coaching now as well. Wow. From her,

Kate Fitzgerald: (27:03)
We have a few minutes left. I would really like to see get some input from people. If you have questions for Kim or just wanna talk about any of these issues Who, here we go.

Audience Member 1: (27:23)
Hey there, thanks for the talk, I wanted to ask a little bit about, some tactical strategies for young women who do wanna have families and they go on maternity leave. What sort of discussions should they be having with their manager and their leadership prior to going on leave to ensure that they're coming back to their old job, not a completely different profile, the cool stuff that they're working on isn't handed off, any such advice would be great.

Kim Fitzsimmons: (27:53)
Yeah. I think the first thing is actually having the conversation, you know, the law protects you in a certain extent. It doesn't say you're gonna come back to the exact same role with the exact same project that you might be working on. And I don't know that that's realistic depending upon the project has to keep going on. Right. So you're somewhat protected, but I think having the conversation earlier sooner rather than later I think a lot of people do tend to, you know, wait, but sooner rather than later, and being very intentional and letting the company know that you are intending on coming back. Right. Because there's always that question mark too, of, you know, if they get home and, you know, get connected and bonded and you may not wanna come back and then, you know, keeping that dialogue. So being very, intentional about the conversation

Kate Fitzgerald: (28:48)
And having just keeping the doors open. Right, Being honest.

Kim Fitzsimmons: (28:54)
That's important, Frank and honest. And if at some point you think you do, you know, wanna change your mind. I think the sooner you are contemplating that a conversation is probably appropriate too,

Kate Fitzgerald: (29:05)
And hopefully organizations are becoming more receptive to that and welcoming people in those conversations. Anyone else have an observation comment? Any of the supportive husbands wanna pitch in here's Daniel was working in New York city in the beginning of the pandemic. Then what happened? Speaker 4: (29:25) Hold one second. And Mike, I'll Kate Fitzgerald: (29:26) Tell you she's on her way. She's on her way. Kim Fitzsimmons: (29:27) She's running, Speaker 4: (29:29) Running. Kim Fitzsimmons: (29:29) Well, not literally. Speaker 4: (29:32) Kate Fitzgerald: (29:34) Commuting to Manhattan for his, I think he's up here. Oh. Commuting to Manhattan for years. Raise their hands. Speaker 4: (29:42) There Daniel Wolfe: (29:42) You go. So, one thing I remember when, when my wife and I had our child was just how unprepared her company was just for, you know, pumping and just these needs that have been around since the Dawn of time. And I, realized that in like the hybrid workplace, you know, the whole dynamic changes, but for women who do want to come back to the office and such like, what can we, as, you know, managers and such do to make sure that things that I, might not have even thought of before parenthood, much less, certainly not being able to give birth or breastfeed myself, you know what should we be doing to be more accommodating and make sure that they do feel welcomed back? Kim Fitzsimmons: (30:22) Yeah. I mean, again, I think that's probably a benefit of as we exit the pandemic is this hybrid workplace. And the fact that we all now know we can be productive working from home. So I think understanding that, how many times we've been on calls with, you know, representatives from other companies and you hear their child and dog barking in the background, and we're all empathetic. We understand people work from home, so I think that understanding is easier. And as companies, we just need to allow and accommodate for it, people have sick children, who's the best person to stay home, sometimes it might be the father and sometimes it might be the mother, but, you know, just being understanding about it. Kate Fitzgerald: (31:05) And it's amazing how many people did flip the script, including Daniel, I think during the pandemic. Yeah. From commuting to New York, to staying in his remote office and managing, we all got to hear about his son and his, his remote school every and John's dogs barking. Yeah. Kim Fitzsimmons: (31:24) It's made it a lot more human and personal, Kate Fitzgerald: (31:26) I think. Right. And it is actually it, so that kind of wraps it up for here. And, we will move to the next session. Thanks very much. Awesome. Oh, wait, she's had a question. Another question one more. Awesome. Hold on. We're not relieving yet a Speaker 4: (31:41) Comment. Kate Fitzgerald: (31:42) Okay. Let's hear it. Love to hear it. Speaker 6: (31:48) Give this to you. I just wanted to make a comment because I think what's important. And I think Kim, you probably do this often, but I think women need to mentor other women. That is a requirement that I do when I mentor. Absolutely. I make the person promise me, you will mentor three other women. And I just think that needs to continuously be encouraged, especially in the financial Kim Fitzsimmons: (32:12) Industry, you have to pay it forward. And, I always make a point to mentor really young women like try to get 'em early before they get in the mindset. Kate Fitzgerald: (32:24) Thank you as an excellent point and very good one. I hope we can develop more even in the next discussion. Yeah. Thank you. All Kim Fitzsimmons: (32:32) Right. Thank you.