Transcription:
Jason Steele: (
All right, good afternoon. Today we're gonna do our best to make this an exciting discussion here between myself and Katherine Pierce of Carbon Zero financial. Our topic of course is the next generation of rewards and loyalty programs inspiring gen Z loyalty. And it doesn't seem like that long ago that, it was about five years ago that I spoke at this conference then called Card Forum. And the topic of the day was millennials. Who are they? What do they think? What do they want? What planet are they from? Yeah. And there were speaking of millennials as if they were some sort of alien species that came down to our planet. And by the end of that conference, in future conferences, I think most people concluded that millennials were much like other generations at that age. And so today here we are talking about Gen Z and maybe that's the first question I'll throw at you here. Katherine, well first let me get a little bit about your background. Just have you introduce yourself.
Katherine Pierce: (
I am not gen Z. My name's Katherine Pierce. I'm co-founder and CEO of Carbon Zero Financial. We build out the technical infrastructure to facilitate with conscious consumerism. So primarily looking at climate, being able to measure, monitor, and offset your carbon footprint as you spend, but essentially being able to act and transact according to your concern for people and planet, which is very popular with gen Z as we'll discuss.
Jason Steele: (
Yeah. And I'm Jason Steele. Since 2008, I've been a freelance contributor specializing in credit cards, loyalty programs, consumer credit. And I've written for over a hundred outlets, everything from the point guide to nerd wallet, to wall street journal, things like that. And I also produce the card con convention coming up this fall for people who write about credit cards and consumer credit. And of course the industry that they depend on. So back to my original question, how would you say gen Z is really different than previous generations were at that age?
Katherine Pierce: (
Yeah. So, okay. What is this gen Z? They're so scary. They TikTok and such. What is this about? So gen Z is essentially 1997 to 2012 ish and so even if we just contextualize that they've been through a pandemic, they've been through a financial crisis and recession, they've been through a lot of once in a lifetime experiences before they're even 18. What does that do to them? Well, one by the age of 12, most of them have already had a smartphone. They are used to personalized data. They are used to technology for banks. You're not competing against other banks in your mobile app. You're competing against Instagram and Snapchat and the ease with which they can engage and use these devices in tech. So when we're thinking of gen Z, we're thinking of very tech savvy, very skeptical. They've really kind of been disillusioned at young ages, by a lot of these kind of systems and institutions. They are very active kind of social media users. That's how they're connecting with brands. That's how they're connecting with each other. And they're the most diverse generation yet. So nearly 50% identify as a minority group. And we're not just speaking about gender. So that's essentially saying a non-white identity. So they're the most diverse yet the most tech savvy and in fact, the most educated, they are going to be the most educated generation to date. So what do we do with these people? Who are they, what are they about ? How do we engage with them?
Jason Steele: (
That's a good question you know, and I'm even older than she is. So I might not know specifically about what gen Z wants but it's refreshing to hear you say something other than, this younger generation is lazier than the older people. I mean, that's what everyone's talking about with millennials. And of course they grew up to be quite tech savvy and quite prosperous as they grew older.
Katherine Pierce: (
Yeah. They're discerning. So think about maybe before you would look up a restaurant because a neighbor told you it was good. Gen Z is looking up Yelp. They're looking up every one star review. Okay. Well, why did it get one star? Oh, were they rude to people? They are very attuned to the sharing of information in such a way that they feel empowered as consumers. They're also getting a lot of their information as we said on social media. So it's interesting, I often think of FinTechs and banks, can they get along? Well, it's almost like influencers these days are the FinTech of content advertising. They are not watching your ads. They do not care. They find them disruptive. In fact, they would rather be engaging with someone with whom they feel like they have rapport or relationship on social media and get kind of product offerings and brand awareness from that. So how do you engage with these people? Well, it's probably not through your standard advertising. It's certainly not mailers, but meeting them as we just heard in the last panel, meeting them where they are on what they value. So to that end, let's kind of look at what is current credit card rewards offerings? And you would know this kind of better than most. What are the standard rewards we think of with cards?
Jason Steele: (
Well, I think, and maybe I'm biased, because I started with the points guy 10 years ago when collecting points was just a geeky thing that people looked down on. And of course, Brian Kelly and these other bloggers made gallivanting around the world in business and first class and staying in luxury hotels, obviously glamorous. We all wanted to live like them. And so from my perspective, I'm thinking travel awards, I'm thinking hotel, suite real rockstar treatment for free with my points and miles. I find that message resonates quite a lot with gen Z.
Katherine Pierce: (
And I would agree in many ways, but then how do we look at these rewards and say like, okay, for a discerning demographic, how are these inefficient? So we discussed this a little bit yesterday. 30% of cardholders bank rate polling shows, do not touch their rewards. They stockpile them. They are not efficiently and kind of consistently redeeming them, but in so doing they're in fact, accumulating, what's very much a depreciating asset. They are losing value over time, particularly in the context of airlines, they at their discretion can deval your points, such that the buying power of those points is less. And so if you look at something like the pandemic, when we could not travel, we could not redeem them for hotels. How valuable then are travel rewards points. So when you think of a skeptical young person to them, it's kind of like, so you're telling me you're rewarding me with something I cannot redeem and that's quickly losing value. Like, no, thank you. So what do we think of then in terms of the next generation of rewards cash back and ?
Jason Steele: (
Well, cash back, it always has its appeal. I mean, you can't pay your mortgage or your rent with, with points and miles. I look at things and I look at consumers and I consult with different companies about this and there's different engagement levels with their credit cards. I'm obviously pretty darn close to 100% engagement, right? And then there's the people who will pull out their faded old car that earns no rewards. And they'll sort of have this for 20 years and that's like 0% engagement. Everyone falls somewhere in between. And that 30% that don't redeem the rewards. Yeah, that's the bottom 30% of engagement. Obviously you don't even know you have those rewards or you don't see the value. So, even though we think of gen Z, as like being born, learn how to program computers, perhaps they still don't wanna figure out a complex reward scheme or maybe they think of it as a scheme in the other sense. And if you look at the terms and conditions, sometimes pages and pages long, it's easy to realize why they'd come to that conclusion. So, because you're developing rewards programs, how is your rewards program going to engage that gen Z person who might be skeptical of these complex points and miles?
Katherine Pierce: (
Well, for one thing, and we are seeing again, gen Z identifies as a conscious consumer. So how are you facilitating with that? So one is even, what technology are you providing? What insight, such that they feel like they are exposed to new insights in their own behavior and identity because you facilitated the proliferation of astrology apps, all these things we wanna wake up, we wanna be told about ourselves, what's my sleep score. How many steps did I take yesterday? What is Aquarius doing this month, etcetera. I think so too. Do we have to be providing new insight in their behavior with their spending? So for example, for carbon zero financial, we calculate the carbon impact of your spend, such that when you open up an app, that's your banking app, if they're partnered with us, you can actually see how your transactions are in a climate context.
Katherine Pierce: (
You can see the carbon impact after which you can exercise rewards. One novel way is for offsetting. So putting some of these rewards points that otherwise you're like, well, I can't fly this or that, exercising that towards something like carbon offsetting and then also the personalization. So if I know you care about sustainability, I am going to broker the best possible discounts on your behalf to sustainable brands and goods, because I know you care about that and in so doing, we are still driving consumerism, but according to people's own values. You can diversify that product line in a number of ways. How many businesses with whom you shop or women own? Would you like to increase that? Okay, we will quantify it, gamify it and reward it. Now there's an affiliate marketplace specifically for women own businesses. And I will get you discounts to encourage that relationship. So for us, it's very much how do you create systems that meet people where they are based on the values they have and continue to drive consumerism, but they feel good about it. They feel good about their spend and they feel good about the fact that it did. So through your bank who unlocked these insights and actually got to self-actualize a lot of the values they have, but otherwise aren't quite certain if they're spendings, substantiating those beliefs.
Jason Steele: (
Well, let me play devil's advocate here. And I remember the look of hard you had last night, when you thought for a moment, I was a climate denier but no, I'm driving my Nissan leaf home to my solar panel, equipped house. I mean, this is both of these things are true. And I pass a lot, a train with a hundred cars, stacked high with coal. And I'm thinking if me and all my neighbors never touched gasoline again for the rest of our lives, we probably wouldn't have the positive impact to negate the negative impact that one train that I passed. It makes it all feel so futile. Gen Z, are they less cynical in that way?
Katherine Pierce: (
So, absolutely. I think we've all had that moment of like, okay, I'm trying, I'm like piece at taking the lettuce out of this so that I can put it in the right recycling bin. And meanwhile, like what's the carbon impact of the Ukrainian crisis right now? What's the carbon impact of Vladimir Putin alone. But when with gen Z in particular, again, they're coming from a cancel culture, they're coming from reporting and sharing information. They're coming from a place of, I have buying power and I will withhold it. And there is actually a tremendous amount of power in that because brands do respond to the threat that you will withhold your dollar. And when people operate from that standpoint as do so many of these young people, you can in fact, get brands to start to change their narrative, change their messaging, change their product lines.
Katherine Pierce: (
And I do think brands and kind of the private sector has a tremendous role to play even in policy shifts. It's interesting, we do our own market research. Most people actually fault brands for climate instead of the government, which is fascinating because if you think about the standards to which we hold brands and kind of companies that actually comes from a policy standpoint, but nonetheless from a consumer standpoint, it's kind of like the buck stops here. Brands are the ones doing the kind of damaging it. So when we think about the power of the next generation to kind of apply pressure on these brands, yes, we also should be doing the wide kind of addressing these kind of coals, the trains of coal. But so too, can we focus on where we do hold power, which is with our wallet and with our dollar. And they know that.
Jason Steele: (
Well, the good news is every third or fourth coal train I see, maybe I see one that's hauling these giant blades for wind turbines, which me and in Colorado, that's a growth industry in the windy parts of the state. So that's a little bit of good news that I smile when I see that. When we're looking at the experiences of gen Z and how they differ from other generations, because remember I'm very skeptical that the current generation is so different than we were, when we were that age or other generations were that age. You know one of the key differentiators, I think is the credit crisis of 2008. I see this all the time, people graduate from college and they say proudly, I have never had a credit card.
Jason Steele: (
I've never taken a loan. And they're so proud. Like there was virtue in doing that. And there are personal finance bloggers who will expound on those virtues from individual bloggers to dare I say, is Dave, Dave Ramsey, who thinks that credit cards are evil truly, truly morally bad. How do you think that gen Z is, is going to overcome that? Or do they just wait to the point where they talk to their mortgage broker who says Uhuh, and then they realize that maybe they should have built a credit history?
Katherine Pierce: (
Well, I think that even still presumes that they have the desire to buy a home. Eventually I think we also even have to take a step back and be like, what are the milestones by which they're kind of plotting their lives. Less and less Americans and young people are actually have the same milestones or expectations or desires. Do they wanna buy homes? Do they, particularly with this to your point, almost this proliferation of travel and what not, there's a sense of wanting to be free, wanting to not be kind of held down by different systems and whether that's a mortgage, whether that's a home, whether that's a credit card with all these terms. And I think the cynicism is such that it has really drastically changed what they perceive to be a worthwhile life or kind of worthwhile goals. Not all of which are tied to owning a home, to staying at one job and just climbing the corporate ladder in so many different things.
Katherine Pierce: (
I mean, I just read something, the attention span apparently of gen Z is eight seconds. So too, do you see that they are shifting away from, they don't wanna stay at one company when we think of loyalty, are you rewarding them for loyalty. Data shows you actually stand to have a greater salary, the more frequently you move jobs. So I think there's this increased cynicism of, well, in fact, that which taught me if I was loyal to these institutions, I would be rewarded. That's been just abuse. They don't believe that anymore. They're saying like, Nope, call on your bluff. Instead, I'm going to focus on what I want and kind of the what my peers are telling me is worthwhile. So again, to that end, I think you have to almost take a step back and say, yeah, maybe they're not so concerned about their credit scores. Maybe they're not so concerned about building credit. Maybe they just want accessibility of that resource of that cash, etcetera, to employ as they wish, which is interesting that when we start to think about like, okay, how do you incentivize them getting on a credit card, who's launching the credit card. And you had some interesting takes yesterday on how can credit cards actually have very low cost rewards that are incredibly valuable specifically to gen Z?
Jason Steele: (
Well, here's my theory. And I think I've shared this before. The credit card industry, I think fails to offer what I would term low rewards that have low marginal cost and yet have high value to the card holder. And for example, consumer electronics company could provide early access to the latest gadget. An automobile company could provide early access to the new hot car coming out or maybe even either one could offer it in a special model, special edition, special color that would have no marginal cost and yet the superfan would totally be all over that. Right. Who wouldn't want to get the latest, I dunno, iPhone or Tesla, maybe in a special color that those superfan would sign up for the credit card at once. And if y'all implement that you owe me a little bit of revenue.
Jason Steele: (
But yeah, I mean, do you see anything beyond these environmental rewards? What are some innovative things that you think gen Z might respond to in the reward sphere?
Katherine Pierce: (
Yeah, well, it gets really interesting even just, I don't know how familiar many of us are with roadblocks and these various, but there are used to these kind of, metaverse like in environments when I was younger, we played Sims and you'd build these universes. I wasn't paying money to actually kind of add decorations to these homes and things with which I engaged in this platform. But increasingly there is this very fluid relationship between actual capital and paying such that you can have added features to video games, added features to this world you're creating online. So for such generation that's so immersively engrossed with all things social media and virtual. I think actually we're gonna be seeing a lot of redemption towards this virtual world. How am I decorating or creating an aesthetic in this virtual world? How am I even just looking at social media as it exists presently people will pay to increase their followers. People will pay to get certain filters for their photos. People will pay to decorate and kind of create value around their technical identity, their digital identity. And I think we'll be seeing a lot more of that, where particularly for something that they don't necessarily think has implicit value, just putting it towards, then it's a digital reward. Let me use it to kind of decorate my digital life.
Jason Steele: (
Yeah. I was thinking something like elite status, which is maybe kind of an older generation thing offering virtual goods clearly has no marginal cost in the traditional sense. I mean, you're not really obviously offering a standard good or service that has a labor or material input to it. And yet, yeah, clearly if you're a video game aficionado, if you are a metaverse virtual world. Amazing.
Katherine Pierce: (
And what's interesting is when we think of these things, we're like the metaverse, well, I don't do that, but the kind of average young person in some capacity has already engaged with this kind of digital commerce. Again, whether or not they're just adding a feature on Instagram where you can send likes or kind of send tokens this online commerce and digital repository essentially of assets is so much more common with this generation. And so I think it's funny to think about the fact that we're even here talking about this, how many of us are on TikTok, anyone? Okay. He's gonna come up and dance for us next. But many of us aren't even on the platforms from which they're understanding brands from which they're receiving their news from which they're having a sense and curating gen Z value. So I actually think also increasingly get some more gen Z voices in the room, get some more people, just ask them, meet them where they are, which has very much been the theme.
Katherine Pierce: (
But, if we are not kind of native to these landscapes, by all means, let's ask these consumers, what do you value? What would excite you? What would in fact engage you? But for many of us, I think it does seem foreign. I'm millennial. I still haven't TikToked one in my life. I don't really get the appeal. Nonetheless, it's about meeting them where they are. And I think all of this technology conscious consumerism, every innovation will either be a tidal wave that pummels you or an incredible opportunity that you will ride into profitability. So here's hoping that we all learn how to serve.
Jason Steele: (
Yeah. Well, I mean, talking about, when we talked about the credit crisis and that effect on people, I don't think a history is ready to write the final word on the pandemic, hopefully very soon. Yeah. But what's your first take? Like how is that affecting the gen Z in particular?
Katherine Pierce: (
Yeah. I mean, again, the utmost reliance on technology. Everything that became, their education was online, the mechanism by which you connected with family was online, everything, shopping online. So I think what was already kind of a growing trend, becoming a necessity, and that will not be a behavior that soon given up. So kind of meeting the reality that the pandemic accelerated this digitization that we now have to keep up with. And again, I do think even just when we are thinking scale back before we even look at rewards and everything, how seamless is your banking app? How clunky is it? Is a young person gonna get on there and be like, absolutely not. I even find myself having that experience. And I am not nearly as savvy with technology as many of these Gen Zers. So with what ease can people who are technologically savvy interface and engage with your app? Do they feel like they're learning things about their own spending about their own identity?
Katherine Pierce: (
Do they feel like there's reason to open it beyond once a month to say, great, I'm not in debt. I do think that tech is the way forward. And as much as you might have been meeting your clients in person, or perhaps even on the web, it will be on their phone. It will continue to kind of be on these smaller devices and the standard to which we're being held is much more akin to the experiences they're having now on social media and just the efficiency. My parents they've maybe never used their banking app. I promise you the next generations only using that.
Jason Steele: (
Yeah. Be it with banking or especially with travel every time I realize that I have to call in, I say, this is an absolute failure of the person who put together this app because that app couldn't, I don't know, put me on the standby list or that app couldn't reallocate my credit line between two cards. That to me is a failure. And I'm certainly not gen Z. I can't imagine what gen Z. I am imagining they think of that as something beyond failure, like just beyond contempt, like what do they want you to like actually go there and go to the bank?
Katherine Pierce: (
I think there is disdain for inefficiency. And I think there really is almost this like, evolve or die. Like we will just not engage with that product by all means. If you don't wanna kind of keep up with technology, then you just will not meet this market. And again, there's this tech savviness a high standard for the technological experience and then such is the emotional impact of I think that recession watching their parents lose their jobs, watching their parents stress over whether or not they were going to be able to meet their mortgage, watching their parents be in such a state of peril because of the institutions on which they depended and kind of this foundation upon which they were trying to build because for the American dream. I think there's now such cynicism about, do I wanna follow in those footsteps? Do I trust these institutions? Do I want to put myself in that position? And I think for many of the answer is no, I don't see any good reason to.
Jason Steele: (
Yeah. I mean, I think looking back at it, we can look at the 2008 financial crisis as a personal finance crisis on the scale of what 9/11 was to national security. And we could look at the pandemic as something that probably doesn't have any precedent until you go back to world war II. And even then it was entirely different as totally affecting their lives in ways that, we look at it over the last couple years now, hopefully things are back to normal. They look at it in a totally different way.
Katherine Pierce: (
Absolutely. And I can't even imagine what it would've been like to do zoom classes for two years and can't kind of interact with my peers in that way. And I think it'll be fascinating. We'll continue to learn from these with time as new insights come forward. But I wouldn't take lightly that things will go back to normal. I think we are very much in kind of new territory, the rate at which this digital nativeness has increased, is it profound? And also even something like us, I feel like every panel eventually says crypto or a bit blockchain or this or that. But even how people are starting to wanna cut out middle men in different ways. Like Dows and this idea of like, in what capacity can we meet and on a communal level, own resources on a communal level, on a technological level, in what capacity can we be cutting out some of these middle people whom we distrust?
Katherine Pierce: (
I think there's been a profound shift ideologically, and also in terms of that. And so if you do in fact, want to regain trust, if you want to reengage it's in tech, it's in ensuring that your products are kind of almost worthy of that kind of caliber of a user and then also meeting them in their conscious consumers and meeting them with the values that they care about, meeting them in the ways that they like to self-express, vote with their dollar. This is a very feisty and opinionated generation. And I think honestly, we stand to benefit from it.
Jason Steele: (
Give me an example of one of these middle people that they want to get rid of.
Katherine Pierce: (
Well, I even think in the music industry, so think about if you're a die hard fan of a band early days before anybody liked them, you were buying their music and you were supporting them. And it was very much this fan base who actually helped propel them towards fame, who makes the most money, the record label. So increasingly you're seeing kind of systems by which the fans almost get to invest in musicians, such that as the musician kind of, their star goes up, the fans get a return on that as well. Because the fans were the one who are actually there and the trench is actually supporting them all along. And then, so too, does the artist have kind of greater control over their own music, greater control over their own profits? So looking at something like a record label, for example, and the extraction of wealth from both the artists and the fan base where the fan base gets no return on having endorsed this artist.
Katherine Pierce: (
When we look at creator content, these kind of influencer communities, there's such a sense of the community and the content creator want to both be benefiting from this. And they wanna kind of start cutting out the people who are actually driving revenue from these interactions, which sometimes even can be social media. So to that end they're very at home on social media and even still, some of that cynicism is now being directed at, all right, but you're making money off of us. We're the ones promoting these platforms, promoting giving value to these spaces. How do we now benefit?
Jason Steele: (
Now translate that over to banking and credit cards and payments. How does that work?
Katherine Pierce: (
Look. Well, honestly, I don't even know, cause I don't think you have them on there yet. So I am even just amassing that big of a population, such that they are engaging with your app, but that's, I think what it comes back to, how do you engage them? What would make them want to open this app? What do they stand to learn? How do they stand to benefit? And coming up with innovative ways to just showing a credit score, just showing transaction history will not suffice.
Jason Steele: (
Well, I'm unwilling to, like I said before, ascribe laziness to earlier generations the way, adults often did to my generation and your generation, but isn't there a certain arrogance in a gen Z person saying, oh, I'm gonna choose this over that. And that's gonna save the world because I made this important choice.
Katherine Pierce: (
I mean, yes and no enough people make a decision to vote with their dollar, that it actually makes one company whose practices they don't believe in suffer, then they've done their job. I think the actual voting with your dollar is a real concept. It's just whether or not we feel empowered to do so, whether or not we feel like we can make informed decisions to do so, but voting with your dollar, I think actually has always been an effective mechanism, both of protest and of empowerment. So I think they recognize that. And again, they are growing up in cancel culture. They know the power of getting on Twitter and being like this person stinks so too, do they do that with brands? That trends it, they now more than ever can kind of amass a following and a movement around their sentiments, both for people and brands.
Jason Steele: (
So in the absence of government interaction on climate change, which is sadly what we have in this country, you think that individuals are gonna essentially compel the brands, to do the right thing.
Katherine Pierce: (
Absolutely. I really do. And I think much like FinTech has been disruptive and is making banks now say like, okay, maybe there's something worth listening to, that's exactly what we're seeing in other facets in other spaces. These newcomers come along, they engage with younger groups in a capacity that the legacy brands have been unable to, and as such the legacies are like, all right, somebody go download TikTok or whatever it may be, but I do, I think that there's credibility and you have to meet the demand where it is. And if that next generation is where your next generation of consumers, buckle up.
Jason Steele: (
Okay. So last question, before we maybe take some questions from the audience here. Earlier, we started by saying gen Z is 97 to 2012 birthdays. That means the 97 people, they're 25 years old. They are many of them, you know, they're done with college, they're getting married, maybe even buying a house, having kids, are they gonna just merge into the millennials and the gen Xs? Or are they going to really have a defining portion of their generation, much like, the greatest generation, you know, world war II, even my grandparents did living through their depression.
Katherine Pierce: (
Yeah. I think, and one thing that we didn't even mention in the context of that, which they've experienced is also the great resignation. So they're growing up with that as well. A greater sense of entitlement of what I deserve from my employer. So they're graduating from college, they've got a lot of debt. They cannot afford the lifestyle that their parents, maybe one generation before might have been able to. So many of the things that they were taught to want are economically not feasible. And I think so there is kind of this, okay, we're gonna rewrite a lot of this. We're maybe we don't want the same thing. So I don't think there's gonna be a gradual blurring of the lines into kind of the millennial and boomer. I think there's been, even among other generations, a big reset of, I maybe have more power, I don't need to put up with this. Maybe I will in fact, quit that job. Maybe I will. In fact, actually stop banking with them. I think we are all kind of reclaiming our time, our energy and our resources in new and empowering ways. And I think it only does stand to increase the standard to which brands and institutions hold themselves.
Jason Steele: (
Well, I think it's obvious that Katherine and I could talk all day, but we're almost out of time and, and I would love if any of you had questions for either of us.
Katherine Pierce: (
What is TikTok ? What is a Snapchat? I don't have them either.
Audience 1: (
Fascinating discussion. Thank you very much. I didn't even have to have my.
Jason Steele: (
Oh, hold the mic a little closer please.
Katherine Pierce: (
Sorry, we can't hear.
Speaker 3: (
I was just saying fascinating discussion. Thank you very much. I didn't even need the coffee today afternoon.
Jason Steele: (
Even though, clearly we had I think a panelist missing.
Audience 1: (
Maybe you guys had some coffee. So I'm listening to you and I feel like obviously the legacy bank I'm from Wells Fargo. So legacy of Legacy banks out there, and we have to do something about this and if we want to keep up with the, if we wanna engage this generation, but what the takeaway I had was okay, just this generation does not trust large institutions. Right? But at the same time, they want highly customized focus on me type of products. How do you deal with this? I want a customized product, but I don't trust you. So I won't give you my personal information. I mean what does your research tell you about that? Are they willing to divulge everything about them? They don't care about their personal information like the previous generation does.
Katherine Pierce: (
Yeah, well, we do see, I think there's a readiness to at least do debit cards. And I think that can be a starting point for anyone. And that's still kind of an onboarding of like, okay let introduce who we are to you. But I do think it comes down to optionality. So if you, before thought, like there's going to be one reward and it's going to be airline miles and that will totally satiate the hunger for rewards and loyalty. You can't do that anymore. And I do think when we talk about personalization, it's asking them, even in the interface of the app, what are you about, what do you enjoy? What would be rewarding? And then truly having affiliate marketplaces, having data mechanisms by which you can be tracking that behavior in that app per those types of verticals. And this opens up a great opportunity for cross marketing for there is money to be made if you can provide these features.
Katherine Pierce: (
And I think so much of it is then bolstering the tech, bolstering your ability to meet these new kind of demands, these new interests. But I think, almost choose your own adventure, give people the opportunity to tell you what they want. And by all means, then you can give them what they want, but that empowerment structure that I've never opened a banking up and add them, kind of say, what would be rewarding to you? That's a great starting point. Building that affiliate marketing around that discounts around that specific to it. There's a new, and when we see the proliferation of new cards, that's the demand they're trying to meet. There's a new card nest that just came to the FinTech, I think $15 million, seed they're specifically going to reward you with health and wellness, because they know our generation loves all things, health and wellness, the cards that are specifically going to reward you for exercise for this, for that, these cards are coming to market that are kind of offering according to these niche interests because banks aren't filling that. If legacy banks were in fact and we know they're well capitalized enough.
Katherine Pierce: (
And we know that you can in fact do it. It's just about moving in and applying that technology. If you start to offer a suite of rewards that is actually as diverse and multifaceted as the consumers you're trying to engage, you can engage them. But in the absence of that only kind of the standard things that the same rewards that you were offering 10 years ago, 20 years ago to their parents, no, they're probably gonna work with a FinTech or they're just probably not going to engage at all. So optionality is kind of my big word.
Jason Steele: (
I think someone over here had a question.
Audience 2: (
Yeah, I have a question. So also really appreciate the conversation. We could talk all day about this, right? And, this generational conversation, the three of us are here from city and we had it about millennials, right? It's always very intriguing to the older generations. What's happening with the up and coming generations and how do we tailor to them, etcetera. But my question is, how can we work together as the different generations to make the most of our products and services, to make the most of our environment, to make the most of whatever topic A, B or C. So because that's really what we have to do. It's not just about gen Z. And I recognize that's the topic here, but it's, how do we coexist to make the most?
Katherine Pierce: (
And I think that's where that collaboration comes in, because very much so, you know, we all have something to contribute, but we all have something to learn. And so the banks, the legacy banks let's have a moment where we give legacy banks, their credit, they're good at, they have a lot of already, that parents with whom these kind of kids have banked. You have those relationships, you also have these kind of robust programs, regulatory compliance, there's so much that is done well. So, I think we all need to listen to what do you have to contribute? What can I learn from you? And so this is where you start to see this blending of, I think there will always be legacy banks. I think they will succeed and prevail. I think however, their ability to kind of evolve and necessities, what is that is the mother of invention is incorporating these younger generation.
Katherine Pierce: (
And so that means a new generation of technology, FinTechs, and then continuing to meet people where they are a across the board. So for me, it's not actually about displacing banks. I very much believe that banks will continue to be a cornerstone of this relationship, but listening to what is working. And I think you can look to FinTechs. You can look to so many of even just the data and trends that we're seeing with young people, social media, how they get their information and just instead of fighting it, accepting it and embracing it and incorporating it. And if in fact, as a bank, you are not equipped to build that technology, those features, etcetera, then look for those partnerships. Collaboration, I really do think will continue to be the name of the game because that, which the bank do to incredibly well fintechs probably don't and won't for a very long time. And that which fintechs do very well, banks don't necessarily. And pretty soon we're all going to be needing to learn an entirely new technology. So I think if we just can learn from the history of we need to evolve and it's better to do so with grace by accepting kind of the new insights and innovations rather than fighting them or waiting until they're already antiquated and then onboarding it. And it's like, oh, whoop you do that was five years ago.
Jason Steele: (
Well, let me wrap this up with a few quick points. I mean, first of all, to your point, I would say certainly, meet them where they are and recognize, but also don't make the mistakes of the industry in the past saying that these are alien species. They certainly have a lot in common, probably more in common with you and your generation, whichever generation you're from. When you are that age, then they have a part. I would also encourage you to return here in a half an hour, I'll be moderating a panel that includes a very innovative company called Built. That's doing some interesting things towards engaging Gen Z. It's all about loyalty and cobrand programs and I'll have, him along with a representative from Hyat. So I encourage you to come back to that. And finally, I wanna plug Katherine is at, we did a really nice walk on the desert this morning. And if you wanna reach out to her, I guess, through the app, the conference app might be a great way to reach out to you. If you'd like to join us, we had about a dozen or so people, and it was a lot of fun.
Katherine Pierce: (
I'll just drop the details. If you wanna start tomorrow morning with some beautiful, fresh air, get your legs moving. It's completely flat. 7:00 AM in the lobby. We just meet, we go for a walk this time, we know the trail, so there will not be... We know exactly what we're getting into, but, just a great way to kind of meet with people outside of a conference room.
Jason Steele: (
Yeah. And if you wanna learn more about card con, go to cardconexpo.com. That's my conference coming up this fall in New Orleans. That said thank you very much and feel free to approach us with all your questions, comments, and S
Speaker 2: (
Give him the complaints.