Most influential women in payments conference: The path to leadership: Career pivots, potholes and priorities

A panel discussion featuring 2023 honorees and their stories on becoming a leader and what the key components of leadership are to their organizations.

Transcript:

Daniel Wolfe (00:09):

All right. So Hannah was right. I got to say that this is absolutely my favorite part of the event. There are conversations that happen in the Women in Payments warning that I don't hear anywhere else. And I hope we can have more of those and that we can all learn things. I definitely expect to learn something. So my name is Daniel Wolfe. I'm an Editor with American Banker. I have been with this company in various roles for about 19 years. And like I said, it's always something I'm learning something new. Carol, if you want to introduce yourself.

Carol Wang (01:14):

Absolutely. Thank you. Carol Wang. I'm a Senior Vice president at KeyBank. I've been in payments for about 22 years. Spent about 17 years at American Express. I was also at F I S and Pfizer.

Daniel Wolfe (01:28):

So we have two very different kind of career paths between the two of us. I have stayed put and let them give me new business cards every few years whenever they decided they wanted me to do something else. Yes. And you've taken more initiative. So that wasn't meant as a joke. Okay. But I mean, seriously, it sounds like your career has been a lot more dynamic. So just before we jump into the theme, just tell us a bit about what you've seen just in the various roles that you've held and how each of these cultures and everything has been different and it shaped your own career.

Carol Wang (02:03):

Yeah, absolutely. I was just telling someone when I started at Amex after school, at the time, nobody really, payments wasn't, there wasn't all this innovation and payments yet, like some knuckle busters weren't that far, far that recent too far away. But by the time I was like in the middle of my career at Amex by then, you know, had a lot of disruptors, you know, had the, all of a sudden the phone. And so it got really exciting. And while it was hard to leave Amex, I realized there was so much more to the payments ecosystem and I really wanted to find out a lot more about other parts outside besides the card networks. So that's why I made the shift. And it has been, you know, say take initiative, but it was many times and from a pothole perspective that I definitely second guessed what am I doing? Because I just sought out things really more about just what would interest me from a payments perspective. But it's been interesting going from a 15 years where everybody knows you to some other companies. But for sure I've learned a lot about payments and that was my objective.

Daniel Wolfe (03:07):

Okay. So as you said, the industry is dynamic. There's always new things to learn, new people to meet new cultures. And the way that one of my past bosses has described it was just that there's this Venn diagram of payments overlapping other industries, banking, retail, et cetera, and the payments bubble just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So it's definitely a case where you're able to constantly challenge yourself. So on the subject of leadership, where have you found yourself most outside of your comfort zone?

Carol Wang (03:39):

There's a lot of times, I'm sure everyone, all of us have been in these moments where you were not comfortable. I'm also a natural introvert, so being in business development was kind of a strange choice. But actually introverts make really good BD people. If those of you are hiring managers should know that. So that was always difficult. But I also think the other part about that was been challenging was as you grow your leadership and you started to manage people, is realizing that every person has a different style and tailoring your style to them. I think a big part of it is also recognition. I always felt like as a female, you are trying to navigate your own career. And then as you're managing people, a big component of it is the human aspect and giving recognition to your teams. That was something that always didn't come naturally to me that I had to work really, really hard at. Hopefully people feel like I've gotten that. I've spent a lot of time working there. I think that was really challenging. And then I also think tuning your own horn, that's a really hard thing for a lot of women. We really tend to hope that we work really, really hard and kick the butt out of a project and someone says, great job to us, but there is a fine balance between self-promotion in a way that's genuine and comfortable to you. And I feel like that's taken a lot of time because that's also an interest of your team, honestly, because it's not only the work that you're doing, but it's a team that it's the work that you and your team are doing. So that's been definitely a journey for me, I think, in my career.

Daniel Wolfe (05:01):

Okay. So, looking at just the subject also of mentorship. You've been in all these different roles. How have you seen either with different cultures or even just over the years, mentorship evolve over this time?

Carol Wang (05:17):

Mentorship is something I feel like they talk about sponsorship and mentorship and advocacy, and I think these terms do get brought up a lot as people navigating their career. I think the hardest part has always been how to do it in a way that's genuine and organic. Because we actually just held at KeyBank, we have a women in payments group and we just held a speaker and we had this amazing speaker, she's the President of North America at MasterCard and we were having this great conversation and how a lot of times people will approach you or you will approach someone to be a mentor, but maybe it's the first time you've met them or you're not as familiar with each other and how to do it in a way that you actually can see each other's work and so that your mentorship becomes advocacy and sponsorship. I think that's one of the hardest things. But I feel that with the way that I think culturally we're just more vocal now. We're more vocal that, hey, I'm a female in the workplace. I would love to have your thoughts as another female in the workplace. The comfort level to be able to just put that ask out there has, I think, improved. There are the way we can mentor each other. And I think of course we absolutely need our male counterparts, we mentors as well. That won't change, but we're able to have a more, I feel authentic conversation about it and make that ask. But I've always felt that the hardest part is making it genuine. So if those of you who feel like you've found a way to do it, would love to hear your stories too, because they come in all different ways. And I think that's always been something that people ask me a lot about that I also may have one or two examples, but I think that it's such a situation by situation.

Daniel Wolfe (06:49):

And a lot of cultures at the office are changing right now. The whole, just that phrase I use at the office has changed right now. And even before the pandemic, I had a largely remote team and I was actually the only one in my own time zone on my team. And so I always wanted to make sure that these folks were visible even when they weren't physically in the office. Just one of my colleagues this morning, we were talking about how she had only been in the office I think once her entire career, but I rely on her every day. So I wanted to make sure that she and my other colleagues as well who are remote are seen by those folks. And when the pandemic started, that to me felt like it was leveling the playing field. But then we eased off of that and people are back in the office. And over that time we've hired people who aren't necessarily within range because it didn't seem important anymore. So with that new sort of dynamic, some people can be physically present, some people can be can't. How do you adapt your leadership to make sure that everybody has that same opportunity for mentorship, for visibility, and has the same opportunities for their own career?

Carol Wang (08:05):

So this whole work from home or not remote and where you're located. I mean I think there's a lot of different ways to look at it at Key. I'm, I'm client facing, so to some degree we also have to be where our customers are. So that in of itself is makes it a bit of a north star. So we need to have employees throughout our footprint. We talk a lot about, we're a little bit of a work from anywhere culture that's really important. And so once you have that underlying North star that you're customer led, I feel that then the infrastructure of your employee engagement groups and how you think about mentorship and how you think about supporting each other, that can happen organically. But at the same time, we do have offices in where in all the geographies that we operate in. And so that is something that we do balance to encourage people to have that in-person collaboration, but also flexibility. And so I think it's been really interesting to see the ongoing debate. I appreciate some of the companies that have put very, very hard stakes in the ground. It says you are going to come back, be back in the office. I think that it's interesting for me as a leader because I've always felt that it's never really just one, like I was saying earlier, never just one style or one anything for a particular team makeup. So I think if people are customer led, because all companies are serving some type of customer at the end that will hopefully can help that company navigate this raging topic. I'm sure a lot of people, I don't know how many of you folks work, anybody in the office full-time in this room? Yeah. Is that more than you thought?

Daniel Wolfe (09:39):

You know what? I don't know what I expected because like you said, it's still dynamic, But we're still seeing companies say, okay, now we want folks in three days a week, five days a week, one day a week, two days a week.

Carol Wang (09:49):

Yeah. We'll ask this question next year. That could be even more people.

Daniel Wolfe (09:52):

Yeah, no, I mean I've been back in the office too and the biggest shock in my mind was they took out the Coke machine and so I need my caffeine somehow they still have coffee. So the year ahead, like we said, this is all still dynamic and we're not just talking about the workplace or the lockdown workplace or the remote workplace. We're talking about a lot of the changes that we're seeing in work cultures and just in our own careers. And as we've said, your career has been very dynamic as well. So you've seen different companies approach the workplace in different ways. What do you see in the year ahead as some of the biggest challenges that you might face as a leader?

Carol Wang (10:28):

I think this is so interesting how we started the year with the great resignation, or we ended it, started it and now don't, not hearing it right now as much because of all the different, especially in payments of turnover. And then there's been this whole concept about, I dunno if you guys read an article around some of the large tech companies that they're almost sort of hoarding or holding onto people. Someone called it, they were collecting talent like Pokemon cards kind of, right? I think that was the quote in that I read. But it was interesting because it did create a lot of competition for us as a hiring leader to acquire that payments, tech talent. And now I feel like it's, again, you have to always be willing to pivot during the resignation. Myself as a hiring leader, my talk track is always going to be centered around the culture, at least for us at key. But then you know, do have to pivot around the edges around that. And during the resignation it was one sort of narrative. And then now that we're sort of in a different place, it's this whole notion of stability but also still be able to work in a fast-paced environment. So I think it's just been so fascinating how quickly things have moved. I mean just every six months we're having, we're hearing a different kind of situation.

Daniel Wolfe (11:38):

Okay. Now you had hinted you wanted to open this up, not typically wait at the end to get some audience feedback or at least that's what I was pulling from you. Is there anybody who wanted to just jump in, chime in with their own experiences in terms of what you've seen in terms of, what do we call it, pivots, potholes and priorities in your own careers? Be brave. Oh hey, thank you.

Audience Member 1 (12:06):

Hi. You did actually, is that especially in the industry, like you mentioned before? I haven't since actually been for almost, I've working with FinTech and different industries for years and a lot of times it's hard to just put that foot forward to be recognized and to just develop within the industry. And I found that with mentorship, a lot of people that I'm the best, so therefore they don't want to get help or they don't have those real conversations to say, Hey, maybe I can wear the right, cause I'm sure you have a strip where I have weakness and that industry, I've worked several days in the first behavior, who are you, right? Soon as I had a recommendation, I see that. And so I think instead of having who are you? How can we learn from each other? How can we grow from each other? And I think if we all have that attitude or behavior to say how can we learn from each other, grow from each other, we will all grow faster, wiser, have that pothole of not having the right resources available and then be able to look at all our priorities that we have and prioritize them better because we have the resources available where I know, okay, I can lend on your strength for this part. Oh, I know you're weak in this area, so let me recommend you to this person. And I found that just in leadership and with development of the staff, that's been really important as well.

Daniel Wolfe (13:57):

Oh, Thank you. Great. Anyone else want to share their experiences with mentorship and leadership and potholes, pivots and priorities? That's not usually what we think of as P P P in this industry. I like it.

Audience Member 2 (Maggie Cycle) (14:15):

Hi Maggie Cycle from the CFPB. Thank you so much for such a great talk so far. I guess as someone who's early career and started really remote during the pandemic, there's a lot of discussions recently about work-life balance and prioritizing other things outside of work. But as someone who's ambitious and also wants to get ahead in this career, do you have any advice about how you looked at your career when you started in the first few years to try and prioritize things that really would get you further in the industry?

Carol Wang (14:45):

A great question. I mean, I hate to put it so basic, but because especially in large companies, I don't know where, I mean your organization, I feel like there's a lot of competing priorities. Some things are ambiguous. Sometimes you're meant to bring clarity to a particular initiative. But I always kind of boil it down to, especially because we're, most of us are in for-profit type organizations, I'm always like, are we making more money or less money? So I always boil down to, and how do I help my organization do that in a way, whatever is, whether it's gaining more customers, whether it's selling more widgets, whether it is to get the word out and how many more people are aware of a certain initiative we're trying to do. And so I always prioritize generally what I'm going to work on that way. And then really understanding, and this is where the networking part I think can happen really organically that we just talked about. When you talk to other leaders at your company and what are their strategic priorities, how is what you're doing fit into that? You have to have a clear path so that you can almost Link and label later. And at Amex, there used to be this term called link and label, it was a really important part of how you would get the word out about what you're working on. So you would take what you worked on and you would be able to tie it to a larger strategic in initiative. And then I think that really putting yourself out there in as many projects, like raising your hand, a lot of times people talk about world clarity. That's one of my least favorite topics because I feel like every time in a company where someone's like, oh, we need world clarity, yes, we absolutely need to do that, but we're also looking for the people who are going to be running to the fire and not away. So are you that person who is running towards it to help put it out to again, bring clarity to that situation? I think then you start to build a reputation for yourself. And I know that that was something that was always really important to me because I wanted to be known a certain way. I was very focused on not only delivering certain, being shown deliverable, shown actual results, but I was also really focused with honestly the aesthetic part of it, how I was perceived. So I always kind of thought about those two things.

Audience Member 3 (Jackie Tool) (16:53):

Hi Jackie Tool from NTT data. I lead our card and payments practice as a Senior Executive in the company. I find myself in situations where I have the ability to stand up to in a male dominated executive call or discussion that has maybe discounted some of the folks at a lower level that are women. I have been able to stand up to and gently talk about the unintentional bias that was going on in the call, either offline or online because of my position. I'd like to hear a little bit about how you've helped in that front where you're observing as an executive in the company of how do you manage that unintentional bias in your organization and how you help be a champion for that for others.

Carol Wang (17:31):

Yes. That's a great, this really goes to what I was saying about how we're able to be more vocal, I feel like, than 20 years ago and make that statement. And when I say call out, I definitely mean it in a really professional way because you really were not, and I feel so much more comfortable doing that. Whereas I think early in my career I did try to almost, I wanted to be recognized and promoted, not because I was a female or any, I just wanted because I was a hard worker. But I feel like now it is much more acceptable and it should be to sort of recognize that women have different work styles and even amongst us women of course we have many different work styles. And having a conversation recently with another female manager who has been struggling with a female director, direct employee. And we had this long conversation around when men are reporting to women, when women are reporting to other women and their work style preferences and being able to have that honest conversation now, I feel like something that I do on a much more regular basis than we did before, which has been great. And so now I actively participate. I probably would've shied away more for that conversation and focused more on if a person was having, thinking about how to manage a person more around the actual, how to make that situation better through projects or personalities. We know we definitely acknowledge it more. And I think the acknowledgement is a big part of moving, getting closer to what you're saying, you feel more comfortable. I hope that answers your question cause I just think it is more around the being able to have the conversation.

Daniel Wolfe (19:05):

Any other?

Audience Member 4 (Hannah) (19:12):

Hey Hannah, from American Banker again. I just want to follow up on the last question you answered. So studies have shown that women and especially people of color in the workplace end up doing a lot of the unpaid labor of diversity and culture building and all the stuff where they say, oh, we're going to have this team building exercise, can you plan it? And that is not what makes the firm money as you were seeing, it has absolutely nothing to do with revenue. It makes people feel warm and fuzzy, but it does not generate revenue. How should people think about navigating that balance between being the poster child for all things warm and fuzzy versus just like dollars and cents?

Carol Wang (19:57):

I'll go back to my own experience. So I don't, a very active participant at Key in terms of our diversity initiatives and our women in payments. And I'm super vocal and I show up to all the events and I'll moderate, I have a lot of opinions, but I don't lead any of them. And that's a personal choice, honestly. I'm going to be really honest. If you have a passion for it and you feel like you could lead it and make a difference, you should go for it. But I think you have to do it in a way that's true. I mean, I feel that I am most valuable as a very, very active participant in all of our efforts. And I'm a lot of different ways to do it. You don't have to lead these initiatives, you don't have to plan it. But if a lot of individuals I know really love it and are really good at it, I mean, I'm also really honest, logistics are very poor at it. So I'm not my poor children, they don't have the birthday parties. I also know it's also not my strength. So maybe that's a part of it, but I will stay true to what I said earlier, which is I find that I am more, I can help, I can be do better I think being a part of it.

Daniel Wolfe (21:03):

And actually that's a good point in terms of changing the dynamic in the workplace. I wanted to ask just as, what can folks take home from this conversation? In your opinion, what do you think is a good sort of in first step change that folks can take in their own organizations to better empower women?

Carol Wang (21:23):

Oh, There's so many. I guess it depends if you're, I think going back to this, having the conversation, I think being willing to engage in the conversation is always a great first step. I think when you see something that is related to an unconscious bias or something you feel like is, I would say it's okay to, whether it's behind the scenes or in the moment, I think to also acknowledge it. And then I also think to spend time thinking about if you're a manager, the team that you have is, I always think about are there people, are there a lot of people like you, or do you have a diverse team? I think that's another step you can also take.

Daniel Wolfe (22:03):

I absolutely, definitely value just the diversity perspectives on my team as well. And just having folks that are willing to speak up absolutely. And to tell me that when I'm dead wrong about something.

Carol Wang (22:16):

Yes, no, we always say if everybody's agreeing then I mean something's definitely wrong there to be, you have to have that healthy friction.

Daniel Wolfe (22:23):

Exactly. Is same question to the room. Is there anybody who sees any low hanging fruit, anything that they would change either about their own organizations or about the workplace in general that would better empower women that would open the door for mentorship? I see one hand going up.

Audience Member 5 (22:38):

Hey there, RJ and Kono from Amex. Good to see you, Carol. Hi. I had a question for you. Mainly for the men in the audience. So I've coached and mentored a lot of female colleagues, and recently I've encountered a couple who maybe are eligible for a promotion or a new job and they've sort of said to me, oh, it's not the right time. Or I have kids at home or the travels too much. And I find myself in this situation where I'm telling them, well, would a man say that? Go in and have the conversation first and then tell them how much you can travel. And I'm finding this bounce around pushing as a male versus coaching them and pointing out perhaps a bias that they're maybe putting on themselves. Any advice you have for men in the audience on that, or female?

Carol Wang (23:35):

I think someone has an answer for you.

Audience Member 4 (Hannah) (23:46):

So my advice is do more of what you're doing. I think studies also show that one of the things that has held women back is there's a real challenge with a lack of honest, candid feedback and coaching. I think for a long time men have been in the positions of leadership and they've really shied away from saying the direct candid things to the woman that they would say to the man. And that is not helpful. So I think my advice would be keep giving honest, transparent, candid feedback because we all deserve it, we all need it. And I think that's probably one of the things that, it's hard. It's hard for a lot of men to do. And candidly, it's not just hard for men to do, it's hard for women to do that with other women as well. I don't know if that's something you talked about, Carol in the conversation you had recently, but that is a learned skill. It's a trait. And if you think about what happens if a woman is unable to benefit from that kind of clear, candid, transparent feedback early in her career, how is that going to hold her back when she becomes a leader? And she's the one that's in the position of giving feedback. And so we learn from the feedback that we get, we learn how to give it later on in our career. So my advice, my guidance would be keep giving honest, transparent, candid feedback. As uncomfortable as that may be, I think that's the best thing you can do.

Carol Wang (25:14):

And I also think, is it so horrible to also say for that person who may not be ready, because again, it's about that honest conversation to say, listen, I would love to have this promotion. I'm not sure it's the right time for me. But I wanted to raise my interest and have that conversation because maybe I always say, maybe it's not that particular opportunity, but when you raise your hand, you never know where that road leads. When you raise your hand, you demonstrate your interest. It may not be that particular one. So I think to your point, continue to have, encourage the people you're mentoring to raise their hand. And again, maybe it's not the right time, but you never know.

Daniel Wolfe (25:47):

And tell me if I'm out of line here, but just from the man's perspective, I, I've noticed that the conversations about home life have been a lot more open and a lot more normalized lately. It's not that gender divide anymore. I know in my own home our gender roles with childcare basically switched over the course of the pandemic when I used to be two hours away on an island called New York and couldn't come pick my son up if anything happened. But now I'm the closest to the school if anything does happen. And so I'm now the go-to person and I've seen those conversations happen a lot with colleagues as well, with male colleagues saying, oh, I need to step out to do something at school or what have you. And it obviously parents of any gender would have the same responsibilities, but I'm hoping that at least normalizes that and makes it easier to have those conversations about work-life balance. If anyone sees that as an obstacle for advancement,

Carol Wang (26:42):

I think it's definitely true. There's definitely less, you know, just put it out there. I have to go do a pickup and it's employers know that we always talk about these studies and it's very well known that companies with more diversity, more flexible work arrangements are better performing companies with longer tenured employees. So I think that's absolutely right.

Daniel Wolfe (27:06):

Okay, so banking versus, I know it's not everyone here works at a bank. I don't work at a bank, just being honest. But how do you see, just when you're working with clients and such, or just in conversation socially, how do you see banking and payments comparing to other industries in terms of opportunities for women, opportunities for mentorship, that sort of thing?

Carol Wang (27:29):

I mean, I think banking now, so I've been at KeyBank for three years. This is my first time out of bank. I've been in payments for 20 some odd years. But it's been amazing to see how much work has been happening in the banking industry to be a part of that banking ecosystem. There used to be a lot of friction, so it was a little bit of a frey status between fintechs and banking. And now there's a lot more of a collaboration, not only whether it's like we're going to figure out how to provide each other reciprocal services, how we're going to deliver something to a end client or company. I think so much has changed in the banking industry that it's much more collaborative and then banks know now. At the end of the day though, banks are offer a lot of FinTech stats, stability, which startups may or may not really know that they need. But I think that that has changed a lot, which makes this particular phase of payments very industry.

Daniel Wolfe (28:21):

Any thoughts from the audience about your own perspectives about banking and payments versus any other industries you've worked in or worked with? All right, so the potholes question that one in our title, let's talk about that. What potholes do you see as the biggest ones that people should be aware of, maybe they're not aware of, but as they're advancing their careers or advancing other people or advocating for other people?

Carol Wang (28:49):

I mean, don't know if you guys know a woman named Carla Harris. She wrote this book called Pearls of Wisdom, the Harris that she does. And something that she always said that, and I was in the development program one time and she spoke, and actually. Yeah, so she has this, one of her pearls is that perception is your reality. So a lot of people, we get hung up how many times you've been, maybe someone else got the promotion you wanted or someone else got recognition for something that you felt like you were an active participant in. And we spent a lot of time having feelings about feeling a certain way about that. But the perception is your reality. And so Carla, I remember her pearl was always when you that then you can navigate that reality. So don't spend too much time getting hung up on whether that perception is true or not true or fair or unfair. And I feel like that's really helped me a lot. Especially we said as women feel like they want to be more vocal, that you raise your hand, we don't should spend the time. Of course, I feel like as females we have to digest some certain things emotionally. We should spend the time to do that, but don't spend too much time, I would say. Because then you have to think about how to navigate that, right? Because perception, I think it's true. Perception is your reality.

Daniel Wolfe (29:58):

Okay. And to the audience, what do you think potholes that you would like to share? Experiences. We got all the talkers so earlier. Nobody. Nobody. All right, so I guess we're getting close to wrapping this up. So I just wanted to ask, so if you wanted the audience here to have one takeaway here from this conversation or from any conversations they have at this event, what do you want them to be asking each other?

Carol Wang (30:30):

Oh, I really would close with saying that I encourage people to raise their hand, whether it's within their current role or not. Raise your hand to do take on. It could be big or small, that task at the end of a meeting, who's going to do that takeaway? A lot of times there's like that awkward silence. Nobody wants to do it. Raise your hand for that. I think also for the big initiatives too, something that you feel like maybe you may or may not be ready for, I still encourage you to be vocal about your interest in that because again, you never know where you might get the feedback. And that's the other thing too, I feel like when you raise your hand, you also get feedback and that's super valuable. So I think that would be my closing is don't be shy, raise your hand and be vocal.

Daniel Wolfe (31:11):

And just one final thought. Having recently done employee evaluations and such, I always encourage my folks to advocate for themselves, make it easy for me to give you good marks. So I think that advice could apply else. I always want to hear people advocating for themselves and such. So that's something I would encourage as well. Absolutely. All right, cool. Thank you. Thank you everyone.

Carol Wang (31:37):

Thank You.