The future of payments

A consumer survey that examines the overall adoption and use of established and emerging payments tools/technologies. Areas to be explored include the adoption of mobile wallets, BNPL, and various P2P platforms. The research will explore frequency of use/key use cases, desired features, evaluate who are the power users and what are the major obstacles to further adoption.

Transcript:

Michael Moeser (00:09):

Greetings everyone. We are here to have our next session on the future of payments when Gen Z and millennials take the center stage. I am your host and moderator, Michael Moeser. I am a senior industry analyst at Arizent, and I am joined here on the panel with Mary Ann Francis, an honoree for most influential women at payments, an associate partner at IBM Consulting. Marianne, could you say a few words about yourself and your current role?

Mary Ann Francis (00:39):

Sure. Like I said, Mary Ann Francis from IBM Consulting, I think I said yesterday at the panel as well, that I am a legacy banker. Lately we are supposed to say we are recovering bankers because you are never really an ex-banker. But I ran the trade and Treasury for what was now the fifth largest bank in the US for 25 years. And then since then I have been head of strategy and product for payments, treasury, blockchain, quantum, anything in the payment space. And that is currently what we are focused on in the IBM consulting group. And I really, I just want to emphasize a really global role. So I sit on boards in Australia as well as South Africa, very active in Brazil on their real-time payments in the Middle East. So I definitely bring more than a US perspective to some of these comments.

Michael Moeser (01:24):

Oh, thank you. Thank you. And I am also joined by Kevin Weber, senior Vice President Ventures, investing at City Ventures. You say a few words about yourself.

Kevin Weber (01:31):

Happy to. So good morning. While Marian's built and led a lot of businesses at City Ventures, I have the opportunity to invest in a lot of startups and fintechs that are working to build in the payment space, e-commerce, fraud and identity banking infrastructure, you name it. So city ventures, we invest in both FinTech and enterprise software, early stage through late stage companies and hope over time that the companies that we invest in have a broader opportunity to work with not only Citibank, but all the other financial services firms and clients that we work with.

Michael Moeser (02:05):

Okay, so we are here to talk about a recent study that was released on Monday called The Future of Payments. It was launched by Arizent Parent Company of American Banker. And the two panelists and I are going to chat about the results and what they mean to the sort of the payments ecosystem or the people actually in this room. So the study, the purpose of this study was to examine the overall adoption of established and emerging payment tools and technologies. We have talked about buy now, pay later quite a bit over the last day, P2P, credit cards, debit cards, and really understand who are the power users. And one of the I interesting things or the important things of this whole thing is to understand how the generations use these tools and the differences that we see amongst them. The research was conducted online with over 500 consumers back in February of this year.

(02:57)

And it was balanced based on generations, as you can see, gen Z, millennial, gen X and Boomer, gender, race. And then we also have breakouts with income as well. So let us sort of dive into the first key finding, the meaty finding generational age plays a major role in product ownership. And the question here is what financial products do you own or use? And you will see some disparities or some discrepancies if you will, with say, gen Z saying I own or use 85% say debit card versus only 77% saying I have a checking account. And so you will see some of the disparities there in terms of how they use that transactional account. But I think some of the very interesting pieces are when you look at things like general purpose credit cards, boomers having almost twice the ownership and usage of credit cards. And one important thing I would like to point out here in the box in the right hand side, and you will hear this later in the discussion, that of the credit cards owned by boomers, 98% have rewards versus only about three quarters of Gen Z. And the second point I would like to make here is sort of more in the middle as we talk about digital P2P, money transfers, general purpose usage of wallets such as Apple Pay, where you are seeing almost double the usage among younger consumers. And I guess I would like to ask maybe both Mary Ann and Kevin, how will new solutions like early warnings, digital wallet, the pays wallet, help drive digital payment adoption and usage? Is this something that will resonate more with Gen Z than say older consumers?

Mary Ann Francis (04:44):

I definitely think it is generational when we still talk about the use of checks. I remember when check 21 rolled out in what, 2003 or four, I mean the reaction from the different generations. I can not have my check back, where would my check go? I can not have kittens on my checks anymore because the images won't capture them. It was a hugely emotional event. But the fact that consumers may be depending on the geos, still writing checks, it really has to do in a consumer, I am a much more commercially focused. We are all consumers, so we can relate in the check world, the writers of the checks are not necessarily consumers, they are corporates. The commercial side of the house is still 40 50 depending on who you talk to percent checks. And that is because of the, it is not float anymore, it is just the ability to make their systems real time to actually do electronic payments. I think when you get in, and I am way past Gen Z and millennial as a consumer, they just do not want to have to think about their payments. I mean, if you think of the Uber experience, you get in, you get out, no, you do not get up in the morning to say, hey, I really want to make a payment today. I want to buy something. But We have made people think about how they want to pay.

Michael Moeser (06:00):

Is that the touchless experience that you talked about earlier in our discussions, not wanting to have the say the friction that Hana talked about in terms of touching cast? I do not want to touch anything. Yeah,

Mary Ann Francis (06:12):

I mean they do not want to think about it. It is not just the touchless piece. They just do not want to have to think about it. Nobody gets up and says, I am going to use my MasterCard today. They want to buy a coat or they want to. And so if you have to insert it or put in a pin or answer 52 questions, that is the turnoff that the younger generation does not want. And for me, as I have said before, it translates into the commercial world because as these folks get into fiduciary roles, which they are now heading into, they want that same seamless touchless transaction to occur at work. So the experience they have as a consumer, they want to have that when they walk in the office. They do not want to be greeted by Excel spreadsheets that are a day old. They want that same opportunity in the digital space that the consumers have.

Michael Moeser (07:01):

Kevin, does this raise the importance of a mobile wallet, particularly for banks, if you will?

Kevin Weber (07:08):

I think it does. I think mobile wallets, irrespective of the demographic that We are talking about, are going to play a much larger role than they do today. And I mean if you look at the numbers, the adoption and the payment volume flowing through them just continues to climb. But I think the piece that I would like to focus on, and some of the data that We are seeing for Gen Zs and millennials is that they are interested in credit and they are thinking about credit cards and opening credit cards, but it is happening later. And part of the reason we believe in some of the companies that We are looking to potentially invest in is the value props and the rewards and why they want that particular card in their wallet is starting to change. And so they are looking for rewards and benefits to help fund the different lifestyle and fitness habits.

(07:57)

Looking for things that can drive unique experiences or curated travel and live events built rewards, at least here in the us starting to revolutionize some of the ways in which you can earn and generate additional points and income for paying your rent. And so I think as those models continue to change and meet the expectations of what may be top of mind for Gen Z, we will start to see that credit adoption pickup as well as some of the new underwriting companies and data companies that we are seeing that can actually help some of the issuers have more information on those consumers to the extent that they are thin file or no file. The other piece I would say is, I and many of my colleagues on the investing side are not strong believers in the debit products that are looking to offer a number of different rewards and incentives for using those products. And so while there have been a few that have popped up, we are believers that credit is really going to be here to stay just as funding those business models in the economics behind it. So while it is maybe 73% today, we definitely see that number really starting to expand.

Michael Moeser (09:13):

Well, let us transition in terms of adoption of digital payments. Cause I think this is something that we talked about quite a bit yesterday, and I think it is very relevant to today is younger and older consumers for that matter. I think when we look at the data, well over half of Gen Z and millennials have done a digital P2P payment and we heard about the Zelle volume in the last session, overtaking checks compared to say about a third of boomers in terms of using a digital wallet or your phone to make a purchase in a store. We have got about half Gen Z millennials only about say one in 10 of boomers and using online, again, high usage across all generations. And I guess before I talk about the other side of the graph here, maybe I will ask the question here to Mary Ann, what is your take on the high adoption of digital P2P? What does it mean for banks and does that actually transcend into the commercial sector?

Mary Ann Francis (10:13):

What absolutely transcends? I mean, not as fast, but there was just a study released last week, I think it was payments.com that the millennials and those guys, the other thank you,

Michael Moeser (10:29):

I was, it is okay

Mary Ann Francis (10:32):

That they, going back to the touchless and the digital is they are increasingly, it is up to 60% now that them use the voice activation. So they do not want to touch anything, they just want to talk to their phone and have it do what they want it to do. And so that is a huge focus for anybody commercially providing services or for banks because that is how they want to communicate, that is how they want to do their business. I thought that number was really high. I was surprised it was that high. And I do not know, I can not remember the exact body of people that they interview, but it was just published last week. But to me that transcended into a really different business model of security. And when you say AI, the beauty of AI is that we have real time and we have analytics and you can find out about your consumer and your customer and you can study them at the point of sale.

(11:21)

What collides with that world is privacy and security. And so that is a huge impact to those who are providing those services because another study just done earlier this year said that it was 6,000 CEO's and the number one out of top 20, the number one concern was security, cyber fraud, especially in a real-time world. So when you combine all of these technologies and doing the transactions in a touchless way, We have all heard about the impact of real-time fraud, but now you start to hear words like quantum and how we use quantum computing to address these concerns that you have in a real-time payments world. So it is a whole bunch of intersecting technologies that are coming to play. And we have as providers, whether you're a financial institution or a corporate, there's a huge technology investment in understanding how it works. But I think somebody said a payment is not just a debit and a credit, it is an entire ecosystem of capturing and reporting and analyzing and using fraud tools and algorithm and reporting and eventually going back to your customer and saying, hey, we have all had that on Facebook.

(12:33)

You you will click on something and five minutes later you get, and you might like this and you might like this and you might like that. So those are the kinds of analytics that are very helpful. But at the same time, it is a real conundrum for business providers to the consumers because the consumers want security. I mean, it is the number one concern. And the fourth concern is cash management, liquidity management in a real time world. So it does bleed over and I think it provides huge commercial impacts to what you want to be able to provide and how you provide it. The last thing any CEO wants of any company is to be on the front page because you were hacked or because one of your files or one of your customers was impacted. So it, it is all of it. It is an ecosystem. It is not just, did I do make my payment by phone or online or at the point of sale? It is everything that goes around that transaction.

Michael Moeser (13:26):

Kevin, I would like to ask you both on this slide here and the next one, a couple of trends that we are seeing, particularly young, younger consumers in terms of acquiring a wearable payment device using one in store significantly higher and future intent, almost three four to one Gen Z millennials compared to boomers. And then in terms of increasing online shopping, you have got over the last 12 months, two-thirds of Gen Z have increased the level of shopping that they have done online compared to boomers where you have got 53% not making a change. What does that mean for an organization like City Ventures as you think about the growth in payments that are being facilitated by wearable payment devices and then the shift towards the digital online purchases, which when I looked at this, I was surprised 20 years ago in the quote internet boom of the early two thousands, it was like an asterisks in the US Department of Commerce. It was about 1% of all retail. US sales were facilitated through a mobile or say PC laptop. And today it is roughly 15, 16%. And so within that, it is almost 1% increase every single year. And the pandemic certainly accelerated that. But I guess Kevin, talk to me about that means to Citi as an organization and others out here that are thinking about investing in startups or different technologies that either facilitate wearables or focus on online payment facilitation.

Kevin Weber (15:05):

Sure. So starting on the wearables side, which to me comes back to provisioning into the wallets, I think all issuers need to be prepared to have their cards automatically provisioned at the time of signup. I know I personally had an experience, I applied for a card in store, was not able to instantly provision it to Apple Pay and ended up using a different card. And now that card I rarely think about having,

Michael Moeser (15:33):

I was going to say, how did that make you feel? I think that would go in the old proverbial sock drawer

Kevin Weber (15:38):

That it,

(15:40)

Did a physical piece of plastic, my wallet, it is very thin, but as we think about it, we, similar to Mary Ann's point on, we do not wake up thinking about payments, the types of experiences and where we think wearables are going to have an impact. We actually look for other parts of consumer's life. So as I think travel, okay, the reason I use Apple Pay, and while I do not wear an Apple Watch anymore, when I did would use Apple Pay on my watch was because I started using it for my united ticket to get here. Got it. So thinking about other parts of life where I have just grown accustomed to and consumers have grown accustomed to using wearables, starting to see those transcend into payments We are excited about. One area that if you asked myself and many other investors a few years ago that that folks were talking about was payments within vehicle and leveraging your car to have payment credentials when you are fueling up for gas or maybe going to a charging station.

(16:47)

And I think We have seen pockets of adoption in some areas where maybe that use case may work, but from a consumer perspective, there is just no great experience. And so that will continue to think about and what could be the infrastructure to support it, but until consumer behavior starts to change from a payments perspective, We are spending less time. And then I would say on the e-commerce side, we definitely are thinking about, because we know our merchant partners that we work with are thinking about it, we know our customers are thinking about it is how do we continue to reduce the amount of consumers and shoppers going through guest checkout? And so how do we create better experiences, have more personalized offers, or have incentives to drive shoppers to check out via a branded checkout button via one of the wallets or maybe through pays as we start to see that rollout later this year into next year. And what are the opportunities there to either acquire new card holders or to continue to raise for any of the issuers, your card's top of wallet We are spending a lot of time thinking about, so We have seen companies like scifi that have got funded over the past number of months. We are seeing other companies in that space, of course, early warning, working with their member banks on pays. But that to us on the e-commerce side is a big area of focus.

Michael Moeser (18:09):

Well, let me ask you, this is a great segue to this next slide because what we see in terms of storing payment credentials, and I do use guest checkout quite a bit, do a lot of online shopping, but where there are certain places that I come back, I really like to sign in, register, yet when we look at the interest in storing payment credentials, gen Z, millennials, eight out of 10 are going to store stuff, the credit card or whatever it may be compared to boomers, still 50%, which is pretty high. But I guess maybe the question here is in terms of does the growth, well, I guess the question is speed being put in front of security and safety? And maybe that is a question of both Mary Ann and Kevin. I mean, if I can whiz through this thing, and if I am on my phone quite frankly and I have fat fingers, I am not putting in 16 digits. If my face can do the imaging if it is stored, that is great. Is speed being sort of put at in front of that security? What is the fraud angle?

Mary Ann Francis (19:20):

Well, exactly. So I do not know about speed, but it is the convenience.

Michael Moeser (19:23):

Convenience.

Mary Ann Francis (19:24):

It is really the convenience and the frictionless. And I mean, I am not one for storing stuff be my first thought is am I coming back to this site? If you think this is a one-off transaction, I am not going through the effort of saving my data, but I go back to my prior point of the more data that is stored is the more data that is accessible to the wrong people if it is not stored correctly and safely. And so the consumer, by and large, unless you are us in this ecosystem, we do not think about that as much. Every, most consumers think every payment's real time, they have no clue what is going on behind the scenes. If you remember, there was a time when you put your paycheck in on Friday in the ATM and it would say, you can not touch this until Monday or Tuesday, right? That is the last time a consumer really experienced waiting.

Michael Moeser (20:11):

Not if ROM could do anything about that.

Mary Ann Francis (20:15):

But again, most cons, they swiped their credit card, walk out with the coat, they do not stop to think, right? No, that it is, and so I just think it is the frictionless and it is the convenience factor. They do not think about that kind of stuff until something happens. So when you have got the phone call that your card was used somewhere else or that there was a breach in the system, which is why combining this ease and convenience and speed has to be wrapped in the right amount of security and fraud detection around it. It is an ecosystem. And so you benefit over here, but there is a price over here if the investment and the focus. Correct.

Michael Moeser (20:55):

Well, speaking about benefit, and this has been talked about quite a bit over the last day, day and a quarter, if you will, buy now, pay later. And I would like to ask the audience here, who has used a buy now pay later service in the last 12 months? I mean, a quick show of hands. Okay, maybe I would say a 10th, 20%. Not that many, but what We are seeing in the research, and if you look at the first two and the fourth, it is really around affordability. The offer allowed me to make a purchase offer, helped me with my cash, though I did not have enough on my credit card the first time and wanted to see how it worked. Okay, that is me. I am a payments geek. I definitely want to see how these things work. But I guess the question here really is maybe both to Kevin and Mary Ann, how important is payment choice at point of sale?

Kevin Weber (21:53):

Payment options for consumers and shoppers I think is extremely important. Over the past number of years, I think we have, part of the reason maybe people have not tried BNPL could be because there is too many payment options. And so there was a push by many of the networks, by the wallets and several others to have different payment buttons to try to capture that checkout. And I think what a lot of merchants, service providers, whomever may have had that checkout page found was there was payment overload. And so in recent months and years, I would say, we have started to see that checkout experience change, which is also why I think speed has become extremely important. Because merchants know if that checkout experience takes too long or there is too many clicks, they may lose the particular sale. But I think what we are going to see is continued reduction in payment choices, actually, because merchants and many others are realizing the cost of the payments.

(23:03)

So in the past year or so, we have seen several companies get funded that are really trying to work in this what is been dubbed payment orchestration space. But to me it is really just payments rationalization and how much are each of these tender types costing a particular merchant or a service provider for that sale. And as they start to see not only the cost of the upfront purchase, but as we think about the e-commerce growth and what comes with that, the growth in e-commerce returns, the economics of these transactions just start to get worse and worse. And so I do think BNPL will have a place to stay. I hope that some of the credit rules around it and some of the underwriting for the consumer's sake do tighten a little bit. But I think payment choice is definitely going to be paramount, but merchants just need to be mindful of the overall cost of those payments.

Michael Moeser (23:59):

Mary Ann thoughts on this?

Mary Ann Francis (24:01):

I have so many.

Michael Moeser (24:03):

Raring to go holding. Go for it.

Mary Ann Francis (24:05):

The number one educator of the consumer on anything, any of these transactions, the number one educator is the merchant at the point of sale. They have to explain to the consumer what is on the screen. If you choose that, this is how it works, they do not read the pamphlet, they do not know what they have signed up for. The number one educator of consumers at the point of sale is the merchant itself.

Michael Moeser (24:30):

Is not that a little too late?

Mary Ann Francis (24:31):

That is a huge cost. It is a huge cost though, to the, it is not just a transactional cost. And then when you get into too many, and if anybody here works with Stripe, the beauty of Stripe is they have 40 different choices. That is the opposite of what people want.

Michael Moeser (24:45):

It is like going to nice cream store.

Mary Ann Francis (24:46):

They actually had where you want had their screens because there were so many rails to choose from that it became a nightmare for both the merchants and the consumer. And for me, BNPL, I mean this is big topic all over the world in Australia, we call it by now, prison later.

Michael Moeser (25:03):

Prison later,

Mary Ann Francis (25:03):

Okay. Because they do not pay. So it is a cash flow for the people that use it, right? it is definitely a cash flow kind of a decision. I can take four payments over six weeks, but We have seen an increase in stuff like pizza. You have to buy a pizza with BNPL. That is just a slippery slope. And that is increasingly happening. We used to call it, did anybody remember layaway well, so this is lay

Michael Moeser (25:33):

But you did not get the merchant.

Mary Ann Francis (25:35):

But that is right. So did we call this layaway with shoplifting? I mean, you do not pay and you still walk out with it, but you do not even, you know, do not have a payment. So I think it is a conundrum. I think it is a credit product. No matter what anybody says, it is a credit product. It does need tighter rules if it is going to continue. But,

Michael Moeser (25:52):

We will have to talk to dominoes about this.

Mary Ann Francis (25:56):

As I talk to people all over the world, it is just very interesting. It is, believe it or not, it is huge in Turkey. It is just very interesting how the different GOs have adapted it and what credit rules they put on it. But they do not only do a soft poll on your credit, so you could do 10 BNPL's in one day and the other nine people do not know. So I think it is an underpinning of not a great future, but the too many choices piece, it is good to have choices, but at the same time, do you know what the choices are? And they end up having to ask the merchant to tell the difference. And why would I do that?

Michael Moeser (26:31):

Right. I am going to cover the last two slides very quickly so we can have some thoughts and possible questions in store versus online. And so what I want to share with you here, and you guys will have a copy of this presentation in store Gen Z, you can see the bright blue line very focused on debit boomers on the other side, that dark green line, very interested in credit, using credit. So this is the question here is when you make a purchase of $25 or less, 25 to 50, 50 to a hundred, a hundred or more, what is your preference to choose or whether you are pulling out a wallet? I think what you can see where the boomers still 10% are still using check for under $25. And then when we transition to the online environment, you can see clearly the boomers, 63% of people will pull out that credit card for a pack of gum all the way to over a hundred.

(27:31)

It is 70% are preferring to use credit and then buy now, pay later. That little gray line at the bottom, it does tick up to about 11% on the boomer side. And then you see the growth on the Gen Z. And I guess a question here maybe for Kevin, with your parent company, Citi being a very large credit card organization, what does this portal in terms of, there is this very strong preference for boomers to use credit, they have got credit rewards, is there some type of ominous signal or is this just a natural transition? Any thoughts here in terms of as Gen Z and millennials move to center stage making the payments, the fiduciary responsibility that Mary Ann talked about, and boomers being this heavy credit card usage? Any thoughts there? Any reflections?

Kevin Weber (28:31):

Look, as I said earlier, for myself and for many of my colleagues, we do think it is just around timing and that Gen Z and millennials, as they continue to maybe get some of that education on these credit products, but as well continue to age, will start to see the historical adoption rates of credit continue to increase. I dunno if anybody else has checked their benefits and rewards that they have can get with their debit card lately, but mine with Chase, I have none. So that product does not really go anywhere.

Michael Moeser (29:05):

Thank you dod, Frank and Senator Dick Durbin.

Kevin Weber (29:08):

And so I do think it is an education piece and a timing piece.

Michael Moeser (29:14):

Reactions Mary Ann, before we ask the audience for questions?

Mary Ann Francis (29:17):

I just think that credit is the future because of the rewards. I mean, both my kids, they have this card because it gets into the airport lounge, they have this card because it gets hotel nights. I have never been a debit fan because of the rails and the rules. They are, it is a different set of rules than a credit product. You can, it is can pay off your credit card whenever you want. You do not have to have your accounting that day. So I do think I see the continued increase in the credit space used wisely, for sure.

Michael Moeser (29:49):

Any questions from the audience? We have some questions over here and over there. I guess microphone goes easiest over there, so please go ahead.

Audience Member 1 (29:59):

So question around that credit debit use, and I am definitely believer credit card is much better, not just because of all the points rewards, but really the rules and really making it easier in case there is some issues, chargeback, etcetera. Much much consumer friendly way of dealing with disputes. But in terms of the aspects that you guys were talking that a lot of this credit is driven by the reward system. What your expectations in the future around changes. Obviously lots of countries outside of us do not really have as generous rewards because of interchange caps, etcetera. What do you see the future us of interchange caps and rewards as it will probably impact us?

Kevin Weber (30:51):

I think in the US that would be a big system to change and overhaul, given the incumbents greatly entrenched in it. And so from the city ventures perspective, we do look at startups working across the globe in this credit piece. A very exciting company actually in the UK yonder that we spent some time with that was really trying to think, is there a business model that you can build for credit that is not dependent on interchange? And so hopefully as that team continues to scale and grow, they can prove it out. But I think in the US I do not think it is anytime soon that some of those interchange start to come down. Obviously we have seen some different cost pressure in other ways, so at least in the US do not see any huge industry shifts coming.

Mary Ann Francis (31:48):

No, no, I just agree. I agree. Mean the rest of the world does their credit cards differently, but in the US it is just inculcated part of..

Michael Moeser (31:56):

The ecosystem.

Mary Ann Francis (31:57):

It is just, yeah, it is part of the DNA of people who want something in return for using the card.

Michael Moeser (32:06):

I think we had one more question I think we can handle. 

Audience Member 2 (32:09):

Thank you. This has been so helpful so far as people are increasingly adopting sort of sword credentials, mobile wallets and things like that, there is a lot more stickiness with the default settings where you really do have to take an effort to change it from being your top card and Apple Pay for something like that. How does the conversation around top of wallet really change in this more digital environment, and what do you have to do to incentivize a consumer to change that card, to change that payment mechanism at either the point of sale through their own digital devices?

Kevin Weber (32:42):

Great question. If anybody has this solution, would love to know it personally. But I think we have seen a focus in two areas neither yet that I think are winning models. But one, there is been some companies that have been trying to build the infrastructure that allows for changes of your tender type post-purchase to route that payment to whatever may have been the most rewarding payment method to use to maximize points, to leverage financing discounts or other things. And so that is one model that we have seen some issuers thinking about, but very, very difficult. The other I would say is actually at the time of purchase in this today works a little bit better in any desktop or browser purchasing. We are seeing some companies innovating in the mobile space, but are variations of chrome extensions or safari extensions to help promote or prompt a particular card at that time of checkout, whether it be through a guest checkout form or through some of the wallets.

(33:54)

And so that is an area that I have been spending a lot of time thinking about from an investing perspective, just trying to drive again, that top of wallet behavior. The downside here is over time for these business models, I do think there will be some bidding and vine to try to always have as the issuer, your card, top of wallet irrespective of the rewards. So whether or not they can remain consumer centric and consumer focused to help drive that particular action or incentive, time will tell, but it is definitely something that from an investing perspective and many other investors have been thinking about.

Michael Moeser (34:33):

Mary Ann, any final thoughts?

Mary Ann Francis (34:34):

Yeah, just a quick final thought that going back to the bleeding of the daily consumer experience into the corporate world, because these folks, they go to work and they want to have their work, as I said before, they want to have their office function the way they can run their household. Just two weeks ago, I had an extremely large, really large corporate ask us if we could help them do Venmo for B2B. We all know that means, I took it as two things. One, they want account to account and they want real time. that is really what they asked for. It was the Venmo model. But that is increasingly the ask. So it is a digital thought, but it is behind the scenes. How do we actually make it happen?

Michael Moeser (35:15):

I can not imagine. You just imagine We are asking for Venmo.

Mary Ann Francis (35:18):

But their mobile. Yeah, but the key is that thinking is bleeding over into the commercial space for all the reasons I mentioned before. So we have to be thinking about not just from a consumer, but these are the same folks that are now taking increasing responsibilities at work. They want that same experience in the office.

Michael Moeser (35:36):

Well, I want to thank our panelist, Kevin Weber, Mary Ann Francis for participating, and I want to thank the audience for their attention and great questions. So thank you everyone.