Mary Ellen Egan, Senior Editor at American Banker (Moderator)
Barbara Mariniello, Global Co-Head of Debt Capital Markets at Barclays
Heather Orrico, Managing Director Co-Head of Global Macro Americas at BNP Paribas
Transcription:
Mary Ellen Egan (00:06):
Good morning everyone. Nice to see you all again. So Heather and Barbara and I are talking about the changing career landscape after the banking crisis. What's next? So Heather, do you want to start us off? So let's talk about, I mean, it's been a very challenging year as we know with rising inflation, the bank crisis, whatever we want to call it, the regional banking crisis. So how has this affected recruitment at your company?
Heather Orrico (00:34):
So nice to see everyone. Thanks again for having us. It's definitely been an interesting year. In fact, I would say probably since 2020 each year has brought us some sort of crisis that nobody, at least we didn't expect, whether it be the pandemic or Russia, Ukraine. And then certainly the regional banking situation this year, what we've talked a lot about is how do you recruit people into organization? How do you recruit people into finance? And I think we're still getting a lot of interest. It's still a very competitive landscape. I do think what's helped us a bit in the past probably 18 months is that the tech industry as well hasn't necessarily been as buoyant as we had seen five years ago. So banking is coming back into the forefront. And also as banks try to adopt and be more digital, forward thinking, etcetera, it opens up a whole host of new venues for people to sink their teeth into. So within the recruiting landscape, there's a ton of complexities, which I think we'll probably talk about. But overall, especially from a ground up perspective, at least the interest in our graduate programs, et cetera, still remain quite strong.
Mary Ellen Egan (01:57):
Barbara, how about at Barclays?
Barbara Mariniello (02:00):
I'd say similar themes to what Heather mentioned. The markets bounced back pretty quickly from the banking crisis, and I'd say it put a bigger spotlight certainly on our people that cover banks on the banking side. So there's almost an increased need in that sector. But I would say the market's bounced back pretty quickly. We have, things have flowed down a bit from the chaos in 2021 of people bouncing around jobs and the war for talent. But when we look at when our hiring needs, we're investing in the summers that then is going to be the class the year following. So we're not slowing down that much. Again, everyone's trying to manage through the cycle and are we close to recession or is it going to be a soft landing? You don't want to over adjust because you're preparing out and we need that pipeline to continue to grow the business.
Heather Orrico (03:01):
Yeah, I think you raise a good point. I mean, inflation has obviously been a very hot topic the past year, and so for us, that's actually meant that we have to have a much stronger junior pipeline because if you're thinking about cost constraints, we're always looking at the pyramid effect in terms of seniority and how do we get young diverse talent through the organization, give them stretch assignments, keep them invest in them, so that way ultimately if we are faced with having to do some sort of cost cutting measures, that we have the robust pipeline within our own talent pool.
Mary Ellen Egan (03:37):
And are you seeing a difference with laterals? Has that been impacted at all or like lateral recruitment?
Barbara Mariniello (03:44):
I'd say a bit. Again, when you kind of react to what's going on in the economy still for the areas where we're growing, you don't slow down on the lateral side, so you're going to invest in that talent. Other areas you might try to do more with less. So it would be, I said smart about it, but I think on the lateral front, what happens when you do see a little bit of a downturn or choppiness in the economy, you can actually, there's opportunities there and you can uncover talent that might not have been willing to look externally before. So I think it's certainly opportunities on that front.
Heather Orrico (04:19):
Yeah, it's very similar. So in the areas that we want to invest in and grow, we still have a lot of support to make the hires as needed. Again, depending on some of the themes in the market, we all know commercial real estate, CMBS, all of that became topical. Those are areas where we maybe didn't lean into investing until we had a clearer picture. In terms of our own outlook.
Mary Ellen Egan (04:42):
One of the things we had talked about before is the non-traditional recruiting. I can't remember who I spoke to, but they had said that their bank had change. I mean because there's such a need for technology. I mean it's kind of a buyer's market at this point because of the problems with startups and funding and the shortage of places for people with tech skills to go. And so what they had done and said that they had changed and instead of having a four year degree, they could have a certificate so they could maybe have a two year degree and then get a tech certificate as a way to recruit more non-traditional people into the industry. So are you seeing similar measures at your workplaces or?
Heather Orrico (05:22):
I think we're trying to look at different venues to tap into talent pools, whether it be starting it earlier. So depending on the diverse population, how do you tap into almost the end of their high school before they go into college? I mean that's how competitive some of it is getting equally, we don't have a formal program, but we're looking at how do we tap into people who may have stopped their careers but had really great experience. So something like a return, et cetera, which I know is becoming a bit more popular on the street overall. For our markets division, we have a huge focus on stem, so trying to get candidates in that space, which I have my own views on, but we'll talk I think a little bit later on when we go into ai, et cetera. So yes, I think that we're constantly trying to take a look at the landscape and how do we have our spider web out there to try to catch as much as possible.
Barbara Mariniello (06:19):
And I'd say similar at Barclays within the investment banking division, again, 2021 kind of forced us to do this as be a little bit more creative because there was such a war for talent. So it was expand your reach. Don't just look at lateral hires from other banks. Don't just look at MBAs, look at law degrees, have a diversity of thought. Can you get someone from industry instead of from another bank? Can you change a research analyst into an investment banker? So trying to be a little bit more open and creative and I think we've now retained that knowledge of what we had to do then and now we can continue to do. And then once you have these people on board that came from different backgrounds, that helps gets the next generation, you have just a different way of thinking and who you're looking for.
Mary Ellen Egan (07:10):
Yeah, I think diversity of thought is really important because I think, and I've talked to other institutions who have said that they move people around in different departments if they're interested and that's taken them to another career path because they could have a talent, like you said, like a lawyer. And it doesn't mean that they have to practice banking law, but they're probably a pretty good writer and so there's other places to go. So I think that's a smart way also for institutions to look at using the talent they have and being willing to move them around a bit. So one of the things which we know is usually the entry level pipeline is pretty robust, and for women it's the same. It's equally for men. But once we get to the VP level, we start to lose women. And this has been a problem that's been going on for a long time. Families other, I mean it could be they just opt out and I don't want to do this anymore. Which happens sometimes you get into a career, but what can we do to keep more women in at that level? And because we know that if they stay long enough, they can be in your position. So what's BNP doing to help with that?
Heather Orrico (08:15):
Yeah, so I guess a few things. One is obviously you guys can tell I'm expecting, so I'm expecting my third child in a few weeks and I've had all three of my children at BNP. So all different sort of processes I guess and benefits. But what's been interesting, I think being a visible woman who's pregnant in a leadership position is I've kind of, a lot of people have come up to me and sort of shared their inner inner dialogue on where they are. And oftentimes it's women in their late twenties, early thirties who are obviously very career-focused and wanting to take the next level, but at the same time thinking about their family and how does that look? And I think what's been so enlightening to me, and I remember being in that place also is just how thoughtful women are and we think about everything and every little detail and how will this impact that? And I've shared obviously not intimate details with my management team who are predominantly men, but also I've shared with them some of the themes to say, I don't think you realize the complexity
(09:29)
Of the mind and also how that can bring in either concern or self-doubt and reservation. And so that's been I think hopefully really helpful in terms of them realizing it's not a black or white situation for many of us. Very complex in general, but the firm's also come a long way from a benefits perspective. So when I had my first child, it was 12 weeks of maternity leave, I don't think there was any paternity leave and 12 weeks at the time was good. And I remember coming back and you feel like you leave an infant at home and you're trying to get right back into work fast paced and it being challenging with my second, it was 16 weeks and they gave I think four weeks for a paternity and now it's 24 weeks and actually 16 weeks for a paternity. And there's a lot of flexibility within that. So I think firms are recognizing that have come a long way. And I'm sure Barclay's looks very similar. I know a lot of our peer group does, but it's not just about that type of leave. It's also about family planning. Again, should that be in somebody's goal? And I think that's certainly, I think one big step in the right direction.
Barbara Mariniello (10:52):
And see this is a topic that we spend a lot of time on and have spent a lot of time for a while. I think we're doing better at it, but I don't think we've got it right yet. If you think about those BNP years or that kind of mid-level, hard, it's hard gender neutral, it's a hard time. You're going from the junior on the team to the senior on team. So your responsibility and your confidence, the client responsibility, the being that first chair, that's the time when you're supposed to be doing that. So that's hard in general. And then you add on top of that for a lot of women is am I going to get pregnant? Am I going to have a family? What am I going to do? What does that mean for me? So we've done a lot of, again, the maternity leave benefits and trust me, I've got a 16, 14, 12-year-old and I want to, it's a little bit late, but I don't want to have another one. Now the maternity leaves are a little bit longer.
(11:47)
We've done a lot on the maternity leave side, which is great, but what we're hearing from our junior women is we want more family planning. That's great, but you don't engage on that until you're pregnant and have a kid. How do you make sure, how do I see that I can do this career and be a real parent and not just an absentee and just hire all the help that will help but be a real present parent and how do I talk about it? I've had someone on my team who if you're going through in vitro in a client service business, if you're going through in vitro and you have to cancel when it's time, you have to drop everything. And if your manager isn't aware, I had someone ask has so-and-so checked out, they canceled on this, that and the other thing. They absolutely if you knew what they were going through and how committed they are.
(12:38)
So it's that awareness that support is absolutely critical. One of the things that we've done is it created a VP women's network. And it was important for me when I was going up through the ranks just to peel back the onion on issues again, is it something that everyone's going through? Is it specific to women? How much I remember being told, okay, women tend to overshare. It was a guy will get up, go to whatever personal thing he has to do, come back. Some people will assume he was at a meeting doing some work related, the woman will go and explain, sorry, I made the doctor's appointment. I couldn't make it on the weekend. I had to go, I'm going to be out of pocket for this amount of time. I'll be back. Just over explained and nobody cares. So check yourself want to be, it's this balance of you want to be true to your teams of yeah, it's fine.
(13:32)
I can go to the doctor. I don't have to hide that. I can go do, go to my kid's show, go do this or that. It's not hiding it, but it's also not putting it in everyone's face all the time. It's just because it's work. It's just so, it's that balance of trying to help people again, that was helpful for me to frame things as I was going up. So we try and build that network of people going through some similar issues. Again, you have these resources, people going out to who looks like me that's gone through this. And if you have that network to help alleviate some of the pressure from the senior women who get asked all those questions and they can help each other.
Heather Orrico (14:08):
I think that's, Barbara brings up a great point about, I think sometimes we tend to be apologetic and we're all still learning. I still learn every day. So in my business I co-run macro with a gentleman who we hired from the outside last year and it was this time last year he joined and we had our first 90 days together and then we had to present to a big management contingent that was coming in from London, obviously working at a European bank. And I remember they blocked your hour presentation and he was like, can't do that time. And I was like, what do you mean you can't do that time? You're not leaving me all by myself to do it right? And he's like, Nope, I can't do it. No
Mary Ellen Egan (14:53):
Explanation either, right?
Heather Orrico (14:55):
No, he just wrote to whoever was running the agenda. They completely moved everything around and afterwards he's like, yeah, I can't do it. I promised my daughter I would be at our school field trip that day and I was like, that is amazing. But I learned that it's okay to just have a boundary and you don't have to explain yourself and generally speaking, they're not going to ask questions. And if somebody I think really feels you need to, they'll make it known to you. But I mean I'm certainly still learning and that was one of those pivotal moments where I was like, I'm going to work well with you because.
Mary Ellen Egan (15:37):
You're teaching me. I can just say no and have to say I have to do this and this and this. By then they're asleep and it's like what you're saying, never mind. So that also brings up a good point too that we talked about on our prep call, which having me as well, having a long career and having some really bad managers and some really good ones, you're kind of stuck with who you have for until you can move jobs or move to different department whether, so we talked about the importance of training your manager. So what does that mean to you, Barbara? What does that mean?
Barbara Mariniello (16:07):
It's really important and I don't think enough firms do enough on training the managers, especially on issues like family planning and some of the challenges that their teams go through. So we are working on that as well. It's another work stream that we have that how do you train the managers better? I know from when I was pregnant with my first, my manager at the time sat me down and said, I expect you to take every day of your maternity leave. That one statement changed the way I think it's why I'm still here this many years later.
(16:47)
It took the guilt away. I tend to be a guilty, got Italian Catholic guilt all over the place. So we took the guilt away. I was like, I like you'll never get that time back with your baby. Spend it. I expect you to be there. And then when you come back, we want to make it work for you, figure out how to make it work. I know that I want it to work for you, but you have to be the one that does it. You figure out your calendar, you figure out your schedule, what do you need? What do you not? So those who things, whereas a lot of other managers will say, oh, we got this great new extended maternity leave policy. Do whatever you think is right or whatever works for you. And then you're like, well wait, am I supposed to take the full time?
(17:29)
Am I not? What am I supposed to do? So it puts in that seat of doubt. If you don't have a clear feeling of that support, and if you're the first one on this new policy, are you the one ready trailblazing? It's exhausting to be the trailblazer. Do you have to set the precedent? So anyway, so training the manager, what we do now is anyone who has someone on their team that's pregnant and this is what you should say, I know you mean well, but at least start with this and if something else works for them, it's just so individual. So having those conversations and trying to understand what, even if you mean well, how it can be interpreted in a toxic way, it's critically important.
Heather Orrico (18:07):
Yeah, I think also, I mean all of us work in businesses that are extremely results driven and oftentimes in markets people get promoted based on their production, how much money they made for the firm, their client impact, et cetera, which are all very valuable things, but they're not necessarily promoted because of their leadership skills, their capacity, their strategic vision, et cetera, which is quite shortsighted. So what you see typically across, I'm speaking from a sales and trading hat, what you see across those businesses is high performers who are leading teams, but sometimes those are the worst managers. And I've seen that. I've had them, I've seen them. And you try to fix that within your own business. And so I think training your manager, there's obviously the top-down responsibility to train the managers in terms of what's expected of them having a strategic vision, people care, crafting your team feedback loops, which I think still are typically quite poor across the street.
(19:14)
But then I think it's also the onus is on the individuals within that team to train the manager. We're all very responsible for owning our career. I think no one's going to do it for you, and that doesn't mean you need to be self-promoting all the time, but I think it's super important that you always have your plan for your business, but also the plan for yourself and what are the things you want to achieve in let's say a quarter or first half of the year. Who are the people you want to meet, the networking you need to do internally, the alignment with your manager in terms of, I don't know, extra projects, stretch assignments, et cetera. I think all of those things, when I've had focus on that, especially in that VP timeframe, it helped me a lot because it made sure it was clear to my manager my ambitions and the things I wanted to learn, what my blind spots were, but it also almost nudged them in the direction. So I think it's responsibilities to train good leaders and good managers, and I think that's a constant evolving process, but I think all of us are also responsible for being in the driving seat of our own career.
Barbara Mariniello (20:30):
Right. Yeah, I think Heather raised a great point that one of the things we're working on as well is a lot of people at the VP level get tagged into different, especially diverse workers get tagged in a lot of different opportunities, whether it's mentor programs or different things and the business runs some and then gender networks or diversity networks run some, and there's a web of things. We had one session at one of these VP women's lunches, which was a just say no, it's like all these extracurriculars, but that are supposed to be great and enhancing and giving you opportunity and visibility, but sometimes it can be too much and your manager doesn't know. A lot of times they don't know how many different things you're doing and how much. So anyway, so it was one of these balances of yes, you're engaged, involved, figuring out which ones are the best ones that you're interested in are going to be useful, helpful, but don't overload yourself because it's hard to say now.
Mary Ellen Egan (21:32):
One of the things we had spoken about too is I think minority recruitment and is there is maybe an image problem in your industry or is, I mean, I'll tell you, I was the Chief Reporters for a national publication and I was in charge of some of recruiting interns and recruiting interns and new reporters. And so when I took over the position, I found out all they did was go in the past, go to Ivy League schools. And I'm like, well, so I went to a public university. I mean I paid my way through college and I was a little scrappy person, so why don't you we go out there and get scrappier people. So I obviously opened up where I looked and it helped because I couldn't make it as diverse as I want, but I got a lot more women in there and a lot more women up the ranks as well. Is there an image problem do you think, or is it we're not looking in the right places to find to recruit or what is it? I mean, I know it's a big question.
Heather Orrico (22:35):
Yeah, no.
Barbara Mariniello (22:37):
I used to work at Lehman, so during the credit crisis. So relative to that image problem, we don't have, let's say it's not quite an image problem. I mean that was like you go to campus and no one wanted to talk to you. So relative to that, I think we're fine. I think it's more of war for talent. You look at the economy, you look at the unemployment rate, there's a lot of opportunities, tech sector, there's just a lot of things. I still think this is a great business that is a challenging career, rewarding career.
(23:09)
Again, when you think about the trade-offs in life, it's something that's you're going to keep growing. So I think there's a lot of good for it. I think one of the things during covid that we've again has kind of stuck, one of the good learnings from Covid was you had to do things remotely and zoom and so you can reach more schools and so you can broaden that web and should you go for the 20th person at that Ivy League school or the top person at a different school. And so it's broadening, casting that wider net to get better talent and attract more talent, I think has been a great thing that we've done over the last couple of years.
Heather Orrico (23:46):
Yeah, I think from our perspective it's a very similar, we are trying to get to people earlier, often more diverse set of schools, leveraging different diverse programs to kind of sink your teeth into talent. I still do think our business has a slight fascination with certain pedigree of schools and as I mentioned, my firm is very into STEM and I think that's great. I was a poli-sci major, so I'm not a quant. But I also think though there needs to be a place to bring in the people who to your point, are scrappy, who are hardworking because it goes back to that ultimate goal of you need diversity of thought because otherwise you end up, you think about the Lehman board at that time, they were all the same. I went to the same school, everyone's just yessing each other and then you have a situation. And that was quite a few banks, and I think that's still the concern we have is how do you get more people through the organization who are making decisions that come from a different angle?
Mary Ellen Egan (25:03):
I wondered now we're kind more getting back to the office. I don't know what your policies are starting at the end of the month, we're going to be back in the office two days a week. And before it was kind of like some of us were going in because we missed the camaraderie is so is that because we all got kind of used to the nice zoom light where you kind roll out of bed, comb your hair and be like, oh, here I am. Does that make a difference do you think for recruiting or for younger town and be like, well I want to do the hybrid thing or I mean I know some banks, everybody's back.
Heather Orrico (25:32):
Yeah, so we've are back full-time for my division, the markets division we have been for a long time and for what we do, which is super fast paced, you're front of clients, everything's about speed, technology flow, scalability, it works. And I think you need to be there. With that being said, it's interesting. We run on a yearly basis, we call it, it's a human resource service. It's a poll survey. They ask everyone a series of question and we can slice and dice the data. There's a whole section about do my working, does the working setup work for me? Do we have the right accommodations? Is it flexible enough? Do I have the right technology to be flexible? Does my manager know how to manage in a hybrid environment? And when you slice the data for markets by gender, it was interesting that for the most part the male side flashed green and the female side flashed red.
(26:40)
And so our policy is you're in five days a week, depending on your role, you can have some flexibility to work from home one day a week. Most people are in five days a week and then they give you a little bit of leeway a few times a month and then it's pretty much managed by team. But I thought that was really interesting, I guess obvious, but so telling that the women would just a little bit more flexibility, not feel so hamstrung by a policy, not feel that they may be disproportionately affected, should they lean into that policy?
Barbara Mariniello (27:14):
Yeah, so I imagine it some candidates thinking about different careers, the fact that banking, you do have to be in person and it's such an important part of the job. So that might get some people not interested, but I think there's enough of the candidates that we look for are excited to move to the New York area. And so we still have that. So we are in the investment banking side of things. We are four days a week and Friday can be remote, which I think it is critical. It is an apprenticeship job. So you do need to learn a lot in person, the teamwork, the generating ideas, being creative, trying to come up with a better idea than the bank across the street. So having that is really important. I do think helps people learn. What I will say is some of the flexibility that work from home period did and incorporated that I hope never leaves is I hopefully will never come into work or run back.
(28:15)
I live in New Jersey for my kids' event or for something and then run back into the office to finish up these last few calls. I mean there's just back pre covid, I would do that running back and forth because it didn't feel like there was a home option that was acceptable. I was more comfortable taking that call from the office being there with the now people can be anywhere on any given day. So it's made some of the just work-life balance things a little more sane, which I think is great. It's made things like, okay, if you have a wedding to go to, you can fly in the night before, do a remote day. So our jobs are a little bit easier than on the training side, but I think it is helped. But with anything you need to be balanced. So the in-person still is definitely important.
Heather Orrico (29:05):
Yeah, I think you raised a really good point around the apprenticeship aspect and training. So certainly for us during the covid period when we were remote a few things, it was much harder to onboard new people into the organization, get them up and running in a quick period of time, make them feel impact and make them feel part of the culture. That was really difficult. It was also really difficult to retain our junior staff because it was much easier for them to field a call from a competitor. It was much easier for them to think about the next best thing and they didn't again feel like they were learning or could sink their teeth into things as we've come out of that. And a little bit helped by I think some of the evolution in the recruitment in the banking sector, but our staff turnover is much lower.
(29:54)
And then our ability to get attract talent and get them ingratiated into the culture is a big thing. And so one thing we're really focused on as well, I've been running a stream within our markets division on our culture coming out of Covid. Let's take stock of what our culture is and it's hear from our people and are we happy with how it's trending or not? What are the things we need to tweak? What do we want it to be? What do we want to celebrate about it? Because I think which is a good thing from a management perspective as we gain more momentum here in the US market, which is important for us, we know that in order to be successful, we really need two things underpinning the business, which is a very strong culture and a very strong conduct compliance environment. Because the one thing that can take all of us down is the regulatory space, which is amplifying at the moment.
Mary Ellen Egan (30:48):
I think about it too, when we had interns that during Covid and they're virtual, it's really hard to teach them how to be a better writer when it's like, I can't sit next to you and tell you this doesn't belong. I mean everything gets more difficult. And I also think back on my career, which is obviously five days a week, wherever you worked, that FaceTime was so important because I developed relationships, I found mentors, they helped carry me up. I mean they knew who I was and I think it's nice. It was nice to have that flexibility for a while. And being older in the workplace, obviously it was easier for me. I wasn't trying to build a career, I was just trying to keep my job basically as most of us do at some point. But I think that that's what is important. And I think I find that actually some of the younger reporters actually crave that more than the older ones who were like, well, I don't have to commute now. And that's the best thing ever. So one of the things I want to touch on before we take some questions from the audience is I think it's top of mind for a lot of people besides the question of is Taylor Swift and Travis Keltz actually dating or is this a publicity stunt, which I'm dying to know.
(31:53)
They a show of hands of who thinks it's a publicity stunt and who thinks it's a real relationship? Oh, there you go. Somebody thinks it's a real relationship. Okay, alright, so let's talk a little, my father could tell you all about it. I
Heather Orrico (32:08):
Got to get debriefed from somebody yesterday.
Mary Ellen Egan (32:10):
I'm like, well, the Taylor effect now on the NFL, because now everybody wants to go to the football games and they're all like posers, what are you doing? My brother's included. Think that. So let's talk a little about the Rise van chat, GPT. So something interesting, but I don't know if you saw it. There's a lawsuit that was filed by a bunch of authors, prominent authors like George Martin, John Grisham, because they had taken their books without permission, without contacting them and then fed it into some AI and then it spit out stories that were similar to how they would write. So of course everybody, me, myself being a writer, not thought I'm a novelist, freaked out a little bit like, oh my gosh, is this going to replace me at some point? Is this going to be something I have to be really be worried about? Or again, the converse size, of course it's a useful tool. So what are your thoughts about what's going on in your industry and what are you seeing?
Heather Orrico (33:07):
So from our perspective at BNP, we view it in first glance as a positive. So we're running a ton of internal work streams, governance, et cetera, about how do we smartly adapt it in a way that again, is compliant and within the boundaries of what we know, but ultimately can help us in terms of scaling efficiency and delivery. A few months ago we hosted a conference and we had a keynote speaker from a prominent asset manager and he spent some time on the topic of AI and Chat GPT and what really what I took away from it was he was very positive on it and he felt that interestingly, a lot of the jobs, the skill sets that probably in the past two decades we've really valued. And he mentioned coding and kind of the rise in trying to get more diversity in the coding sphere or he talked about doctors and how we obviously pay more for a physician than a nurse.
(34:18)
And he said, that will all get equalized because you're going to have machines that are able to do that, machines that are going to be able to code machines that are going to be able to skimm the textbooks and spit out I guess what is needed in terms of a diagnosis. And he said, and that actually is going to lend itself hopefully to the world, valuing a bit more of some of the soft skills because a machine can't give soft skills, you can't give bedside manner that way. And so I walked away from that thinking, well typically, and this is a vast generalization, but whether it's by gender or different diverse groups, you tend to get classified by your soft skills and may not always be valued as much in certain organizations, whether it's tech or banking. And so I thought, well, this could be a great equalizer, so we'll see. But that I thought was a really interesting takeaway
Barbara Mariniello (35:13):
That is super interesting. I'd say similar Barclays were fully engaged trying to figure out how it's going to help and impact the business and help productivity and efficiency. So any big technology, anytime we've had it, it will be disruptive for sure. It could change the shape of the pyramid, it could change With any new development we try and figure out, okay, can it take out some jobs so that people can be doing something more productive and then does it change again, the kind of shape of the pyramid and what's needed? But yeah, it's something, it's going to be exciting. It already is. I was doing, we had an event and I'll never forget almost a year ago, someone's like, are you going to make some introductory remarks? I was like, no, it wasn't my event, I was just there, but if you do, I'll pop it in to Chat GPT you. Here you go. And they put in the word, they put in Barclays in London and then he made it American and then it came out and I was like, wow, this could make life easier. But then I'm now on, my kids don't be cheating. Yeah.
Mary Ellen Egan (36:23):
Yeah. The whole your book reporters do and it's like, yeah, okay, five minutes later, here it is. It's like, yeah, okay, who really made that up?
Barbara Mariniello (36:32):
So the only thing we know is it's going to be disruptive. But I do think, again, a lot of what we do, the human element of things I don't think is ever, that's not going away. So that part again is the se equalizer that makes it important.
Mary Ellen Egan (36:46):
I can't imagine they all have a good bedside manner. So I would still like a nurse or doctor there at some point. We have time for some questions from the audience if anyone has one. We have somebody with some mics. No, the coffee has not kicked in yet. Alright, I'll take one. I mean, I'll make up one. What advice would you give your younger self getting into this or for the young woman in the audience that aspired to be at the level you two are at, what's your best advice for them?
Barbara Mariniello (37:25):
I'd say be open to trying new things. Talk to your managers about willingness to be open to new things. And especially again, if we are, things are slowing down and you're going to do more with less and things are going to open up, now is the time to get it out there of, Hey, is there anything else interesting you think I should try? I'm open to continuing to learn. So having those proactive conversations. Others are also being, okay, I'm going to talk out of both sides of my mouth though. If you're doing life-changing things, I had someone, I had offered an opportunity while I was pregnant and to do something different. I was like, I can't handle another change in my life right now. So it's also figure out which part of your life, which regrets will you have if you make any different decisions, and try and avoid the regrets, whether that's a personal thing that's going to be non-negotiable, but have the confidence that whatever it is you're going to get through it. And if you again, say no to things, say no to that meeting time, say no to a different opportunity, have the confidence that you'll get through it, you're going to be valuable. But yeah, be open to trying new things because things could come up and it could be great.
Heather Orrico (38:40):
Yeah, mine is similar. I would say be outside your comfort zone. I felt that sometimes throughout my career I was always outside my comfort zone. But with that, you learn a lot not only about your job but by yourself. And I think when I was younger, I always just thought there was one path, especially in our industry where it's like you're certain levels and you got to go and it's not linear, it's anything. And so as you maybe get off what you think the path is, you actually are acquiring something and you don't realize it till down the line why that happened. So be open to that and yeah, try not to take yourself so seriously. It'll be okay.
Barbara Mariniello (39:22):
I think the one path thing is actually a great point. A lot of there are challenges throughout, right? There is going to be ups and downs. No one has a straight line up. So those ups and downs there are, okay, I'm going to say if you use stereotypes, but a lot of men have to will themselves through it right there. They're a primary breadwinner. They're just going to will it to make it happen. They're going to have those bumps in the road, you're going to look at them, but they're going to pretend they're walking on water and you're going to think, what am I doing wrong? Maybe I'm not as good as I think. And just try not to compare yourself too much. Just stay in your lane, make sure you're getting the opportunities that you want, that you feel like you're getting rewarded and getting exposure and try not to live too much into what someone else might be doing, but a lot of everyone else is going through these ups and downs, so you're not alone in that. And just if you can plow through those years, it gets a lot better. I think you're then healthier, you have options and you're going to make the right decisions because you don't feel all this pressure of I have to be on this one ladder up. I can actually breathe.
Mary Ellen Egan (40:41):
I remember. So when I started, before I became a journalist, I couldn't figure out exactly what kind of writing I wanted to do. So I was working in the restaurant industry a lot and I was running this massive restaurant back in Minnesota and then I decided, you know what? I'm going to take an internship so I can learn how to be, I decided I wanted to magazine journalism. And so I was 32 years old. I always call myself the world's oldest intern, which I probably was. And some of my friends were like, you're crazy. Why are you taking an internship at 32? I'm like, well, how old am I going to be if I don't take the internship? I'm still going to be 32, so why not do something about it? So don't let age be a barrier either. I mean, every path is this really crazy wild trip and be open.
(41:21)
I've learned to do things I never thought I'd do. I've raised a million and a half dollars for a nonprofit, which I didn't know how to write a grant, but I'm like, well, I think I'm smart enough, I can figure it out. So it's like being open to those things that might scare you, but if you just think, well, I'm smart enough so I can probably figure it out, and if I can't, I can go ask somebody who knows better than me. So that's the one thing that I would suggest in whatever your career path is, don't hold yourself back because you're afraid. Because you'll be afraid anyways. So might as well do something with it.
Heather Orrico (41:49):
That's great.
Mary Ellen Egan (41:50):
Well thank you so much for your time. Thank you everybody. We really appreciate it. Thank you.