Opening Remarks and The Tokenized Future: Why Real-World Assets Are Reshaping Capital Markets

Real-world asset (RWA) tokenization is moving from theory to trillion-dollar opportunity. For  traditional finance institutions, the tokenization of assets such as real estate, private credit,  treasuries, art and alternative investments promises enhanced liquidity, fractional  ownership, and access to new investor segments. This panel will explore the business case  behind RWA tokenization—what's driving institutional adoption, which asset classes are  leading the charge, and how banks, asset managers, and custodians can capture value in  this emerging ecosystem. The speakers will discuss market projections, client demand  dynamics, and the strategic implications of a more liquid, programmable financial system  for incumbents. 

Transcription: 
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio for the authoritative record. 

Penny Crosman (00:14):
Welcome everyone to today's live media event, "Tokenizing Real World Assets: How TradFi can Unlock Value in the Digital Asset Economy." A paper Deutsche Bank put out earlier this year laid out two possible scenarios for the tokenization of real-world assets. In other words, digitizing the ownership rights to assets such as dollars in the form of stablecoins, real estate, fine art, jewelry, commodities like gold and oil, financial instruments like stocks, bonds, and investment funds, and even intangible assets like intellectual property rights, carbon credits, and royalty streams. ¹ In the optimistic scenario dubbed the "Great Tokenization Takeover," tokenization becomes a cornerstone of global finance driven by ease of access and broad adoption, regulators providing clear rules and fostering cross-border interoperability, and institutional participation and frameworks that balance innovation with risk management, thus creating trust in digital assets. Tokenization of assets then leads to things like seamless trading, seamless lending, and collateralization. ²

(01:27):
New digital assets such as tokenized bonds attract retail and institutional investors with transparent pricing, lower fees, round-the-clock trading, and higher yields. But under the pessimistic scenario called the "Silent Tokenization Trap," progress is thwarted by technology challenges, competing standards, and siloed ecosystems, prolonged industry debates on standardization, regulatory paralysis, jurisdictional conflicts, and unclear ownership laws that heighten legal risks and costs and create doubts about investor and asset protection. Without proof of superior risk-adjusted returns, investors revert to traditional assets, and crypto-native enthusiasm wanes as macroeconomic conditions stabilize, reducing the urgency for alternatives. Which of these scenarios will become reality, or is there some other scenario that will come to be? Our speakers today are actively involved in the tokenization of real-world assets, and they're going to share what they've been working on and their vision of how this might all end up. In our first session, we have two key experts and practitioners.

(02:39):
We have Sabih Behzad, who's head of digital assets and currencies transformation at Deutsche Bank. ³ He oversees digital asset strategy and execution and seeks to develop and accelerate use cases within the bank. ⁴ Key areas of focus for him include tokenization of assets and money, DeFi, and the metaverse. Sabih has been with Deutsche Bank for 14 years working across technology and operations, the investment bank, and the corporate bank divisions. ⁵ We also have Paul Brody, who is global blockchain leader at EY, responsible for directing work and investments across assurance, tax, consulting, and software development worldwide in blockchain. ⁶ EY has been investing in building tools and solutions for the Ethereum ecosystem, including financial statement audit, supply chain management, and emissions and carbon tracking. He also serves as the chairman of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance, which we will ask him about later. So my first question to you two is: do you quibble with that description I gave of real-world asset tokenization? Feel free to trash me in your response.

Paul Brody (03:50):
We did pre-agree that we were going to have fun, violent disagreements in the event today, but I will start by saying that Sabih's report was great and your definition was excellent. In my mind, I probably am not as sophisticated. I just go straight for: real-world assets are stuff that we've tokenized on-chain that in reality mostly exists off-chain, and anything we need to know that's important about them exists off-chain. That's my definition of a real-world asset, which can include imaginary things that exist off-chain.

Penny Crosman (04:20):
Okay. How about you, Sabih? Anything to add?

Sabih Behzad (04:22):
Yeah, I think Paul's description is a fair one and probably from a shorthand perspective is the easiest way. The subtlety that I would just bring in—and this is especially true of tokenized bonds where we saw a number of them issued—is that the first batch of tokenized bonds tended to be what were essentially mirrors. I.e., a tokenized bond existed, but actually, there was a real bond under lock and key somewhere at a CSD or in a safe. The tokenization was a representation of something that really exists in the real world. Since then, things have moved on and we've seen a number of native issuances, which really just means there is nothing off-chain. The thing that exists on-chain is the only thing that exists. But coming back to what Paul was saying, ultimately it is still a bond.

(05:07):
It hasn't changed any key aspect other than the fact that it's represented in this digital format as opposed to being in that traditional format that we're used to.

Penny Crosman (05:18):
But just to understand that: if something doesn't exist off-chain, how is it real-world? Because the real world and the chain are becoming one?

Sabih Behzad (05:28):
It's a tieback. It's real-world in the sense that it's a tieback to assets that do exist in the real world. They may not physically exist in the real world in this specific case because it only exists natively on-chain, but bonds are a real thing that exists. You could contrast that with something like an NFT. An NFT doesn't exist in the real world. It's a non-fungible token, which is a representation of some item, but it doesn't exist off-chain in the same way. A bond we trade every day; we know what those are, we know how to interact with them, we know how to buy and sell them, and it's exactly the same concept here.

Penny Crosman (06:07):
All right. Let's talk about what you both have been working on. Let's start with you, Sabih, at Deutsche Bank. What are some of the kinds of projects you're working on in this space?

Sabih Behzad (06:27):
There's quite a vast number of things going on at the same time, but if I was to distill them down into the most impactful things, I think first of all, the key thing we've been working on is digital asset custody. Our fundamental belief is that the backbone for doing anything in the tokenization space is the ability to hold and transfer assets. If you kind of abstract at a 30,000-foot level, what is it you need to be able to do? Whatever it is, whether it's bonds or widgets, you need to be able to tokenize the thing, trade the thing, and move, settle, and store the thing. Those are the three things that we think about. Custody is foundational to that because it doesn't matter whether you're creating an asset yourself; we already know that there's a plethora of assets out there in the market.

(07:13):
Custody for us was the focus. We've been working pretty hard on building that digital asset custody capability. Our plan is to be licensed out of Germany in the first instance, then passport hopefully into Europe with that capability, and then think about expanding from there. The second piece has been on the tokenization side of things. We've been involved in a number of tokenized bond issuances. We did a couple of issuances for some German banking clients over the last year or so, which were really interesting. We learned a lot through those issuances, and we're starting to see more sovereign issuances take place. We've seen, for example, in the UK, the announcement of the UK Digital Gilt, which will be a sovereign issuance. ⁷

(08:07):
It's initiatives like that where we're taking quite a lot of interest and thinking about the capability build we're going to need to support those issuances, particularly as we operate as a primary dealer in a number of those markets. The third area, which is very topical, is stablecoins. We're spending a lot of time on stablecoins, and I would divide that up broadly into two buckets. One bucket is where we've got a number of stablecoin issuers looking for a reserve manager to help them hold their client assets. That's an area which is of interest to us. The other area is where clients have approached us and want to embed stablecoins into their flows in some meaningful way.

(08:59):
The request is for Deutsche Bank to help them with that, whether that is an on-ramp, off-ramp, or a payout. Those are all sorts of scenarios that we're looking at at the moment.

Penny Crosman (09:13):
Thank you. Paul, do you want to share some of the kinds of projects that you've been engaging in at EY with clients or independently through the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance?

Paul Brody (09:32):
I think first and foremost, what Sabih mentioned is really on target. We have a ton of clients we're working with on custody, and he's right. If I think about the foundation of real-world assets tokenization, at layer one, you've got to have tokenization and you've got to have custody. If you don't have that, you will end up depending on somebody else and your capabilities in the marketplace will be limited. If you care about being at the front of this game, you've got to build your custody capability. Second thing, you've got to be able to handle, send, and receive stablecoins. We're doing a ton of work with companies on stablecoins—building them, deploying them, getting their regulatory approvals. Third thing, especially for companies in the financial services or industrial space, they want to send and receive those stablecoins.

(10:30):
One of the most important things that happened last year that not a lot of people paid attention to was that SAP rolled out a wallet for their ERP system. That is a huge deal. This wallet includes custodial partner integration. We had PayPal pay EY an invoice in stablecoins. They sent that money to our Coinbase institutional account, and it showed up in our computer system as cash paid against an invoice. That kind of automation is super important. If we want stablecoin adoption to ramp up, it has to be that level of automation for all the participants. We also continue to do tax work and financial statement audits. We are also big in terms of developing technology.

(11:22):
There are three pieces of technology in particular that we've been developing. Number one, technology used for audits where we are matching off-chain transactions with on-chain transactional data. That's part of our blockchain analyzer tool set. Companies like Fidelity are using this every day to check that their record of what's going on matches what we see on-chain. Secondly, smart contract security. Right now, most of the stuff being built is relatively simple, like stablecoins or tokenized assets. The risks are not that enormous, but still, you don't want to make any mistakes in your smart contract. We have a smart contract security team in Israel. We're actually just about to roll out an AI-enabled tool for people to start to map and test more complex multi-contract ecosystems that we're going to get with DeFi.

(12:24):
The third thing we're working on that's a key gateway technology in the future is privacy. Right now, you have a certain level of privacy when you pay through a bank or a custodian. The minute you start doing point-to-point payments, have complex business rules, or deal with anything non-fungible—like a piece of real estate or fine art—you have no privacy anymore. It's instantly obvious who's got it, where it's going, and how much it's trading for. We are building privacy infrastructure that allows you to run these transactions and have your portfolios under privacy. We have rollout agreements with two networks, Plume, which is the biggest real-world asset network on top of Ethereum, and Celo, which has become the biggest stablecoin network on Ethereum. I expect one or two additional announcements early next year.

Penny Crosman (13:31):
Great. We actually have a third panelist who has joined us. We have Roger Bayston, who is executive vice president and head of digital assets at Franklin Templeton. ⁸ He leads digital asset efforts at the firm. ⁹ His team is responsible for creating new products and services focused on opportunities within digital assets and supporting infrastructure. This includes services dedicated to mature cryptocurrency powered blockchain networks and newer incubator products committed to companies in the distributed ledger space. His team also builds infrastructure that bridges traditional finance market products and services into the digital asset ecosystem. Welcome, Roger. What are some of the types of projects that you have been working on in the realm of tokenization of real-world assets?

Roger Bayston (14:32):
Our journey really began with how we could use distributed ledger technology in the underlying asset management business. Asset management capital markets are full of records, and we honed in on that word "ledger." Records and ledger are the same thing. There was going to be something here that was going to be disruptive. About eight years ago, we began looking at how we might use this technology in a money fund. There were no rates on the front part of the curve at that time, but money funds have a lot of transactional volume and are woven into the transaction economy.

(15:22):
Where we found a place for it specifically was in the massive database systems that we operate inside of the transfer agency business. When we issue securities, we have legal regulatory obligations to maintain those records forever. We were curious about whether this was a better record-keeping system than the monolithic systems that underpin transfer agency operations currently. We found out that was exactly the case. That spurred a whole bunch of things. Our tokenized money fund projects, which we have branded as Benji, allowed us to discover that we need to bring these into the digital ecosystem.

(16:26):
We expect to meet customers large and small in Web 3.0 wallets in the future. We have full confidence that these are a better underpinning infrastructure for capital markets, asset management, and banking. Digital wallets are growing faster than even the internet did. Delivering these securities opportunities into digital wallets is a huge priority. Because of the success of stablecoins—the biggest killer app in blockchain—which don't offer yield, the $7 trillion money fund industry in the US is perfectly poised to complement or substitute for stablecoin users who want interest.

(17:36):
Writing on the blockchain rails because of its composability has unleashed interesting new utilities for one of the most boring things on Earth: a government money fund. As fast as we can record a new block on a blockchain, we can transfer Benji from one user to the next. It feels instantaneous. We have been able to take that composability and divide the 24-hour clock into seconds of resolution. Roger sends Paul Benji at 9:09 in the morning; at 9:09 and one second, Paul begins to accrue interest.

Paul Brody (18:29):
I accept anything you want to send to me.

Penny Crosman (18:32):
Please send me some too.

Roger Bayston (18:34):
Download Benji on the app store and we'll be happy to begin that process. All of a sudden, you can hold a money fund and transfer it from one user to the next without having to liquidate it, put it into a bank account, and transfer it back into another interest-bearing asset. It takes the boring construct of a money fund to new levels because it becomes a utility. It can be integrated into payment ecosystems. Experimentation and applying old-line products on top of blockchain technologies is going to unleash creativity, whatever business you might be in.

(19:26):
We've been busy building infrastructure because we're going to meet clients in Web 3.0 wallets. At the same time, we know that the largest issuer of securities on Earth, the US Treasury, is going to be bringing issuance on-chain in the near future. The manufacturing of returns and the materials behind advice is all transitioning onto this. It's a big project to pivot these ecosystems, but we have full confidence the better construct here will benefit the users.

Penny Crosman (20:07):
Thank you.

Paul Brody (20:09):
People have barely begun processing the huge implications of a world where money can move in under a second for probably under a penny. When that happens, how you manage your cash starts to change. We haven't really started processing what it looks like when the model for money is streaming.

Roger Bayston (20:41):
That's a very good point, Paul.

Penny Crosman (20:44):
I've seen waves of interest in distributed ledger technology for various purposes, but some of those projects just fade into the dust. What is different now? Roger mentioned the popularity of digital wallets and stablecoins. What else makes this the right time for tokenization?

Roger Bayston (21:29):
I think people need to understand that stablecoins have been confined to the crypto-native community first to perform transactions. But now, from the US government perspective, the political tailwinds are such that pushing specifically US dollar stablecoins is literally a geopolitical strategy in Washington DC to keep the dollar anchored as a reserve currency. The rules and regulations are meant to proliferate that. We need to sell more T-bills. There is a recognition that the current US political leadership wants to broaden and deepen this. Even if there's a change in leadership, the next series of politicians will recognize this and continue to support it. That means the underlying ecosystem and adoption are aggressively pursued by the existing financial infrastructure to move on these rails.

(23:25):
It provides an easier entry for those actors.

Penny Crosman (23:31):
Sabih, how about you? Why is now the right time?

Sabih Behzad (23:36):
Apart from the fact that Paul, Roger, and I are working on it now, there are three things. Roger touched on one of the most important ones: up until now, there's not been a viable on-chain payment asset as a counterparty to tokenized assets. We tokenized a bond, but then you had to use the fiat method of settling it. It was a T+2 or T+5 process. Coupon payments all worked the same as they did previously. Bond tokenization compressed the issuance time from a week to some hours, but the benefit ended there and you were back to the old world beyond that. Stablecoins and tokenized money market funds are providing that on-chain payment asset.

(25:18):
The second piece is technology maturity. Large financial institutions tend not to be the ones who go and implement the latest new thing to see what happens. There is a level of maturity required. Early blockchain deficiencies—like the fact that everyone can see everything—have been addressed through layer twos and other technical solutions regarding privacy. Also, the emergence of AI is a powerful concept because there's a happy marriage between blockchain, which serves as the infrastructure layer, and AI, which serves as the application layer. As you see the rise of AI agents, the need for autonomous payments arises, and blockchain is a pretty neat solution to that.

(27:17):
The third reason is regulation. For the longest time, inaction was caused by not knowing, and institutions don't want to tread into the unknown where regulators don't provide clear guidance. Certain jurisdictions ran regulation by enforcement, and very few institutions wanted to go down that route. That topic is largely off the table. There is enough clarity in regulation now that if you want to design a meaningful product, you can do it. Regulation is a little bit like chocolate cake—you always want another slice—but there's enough there at the moment for us to understand what we need to do.

Roger Bayston (27:36):
There's actually openness in the US for massive dialogue to change regulation as things rapidly evolve. That's a whole different construct than we would've faced three or four years ago. We have regulators calling us to talk about these things. We might be point-of-spear where money funds and stablecoins are trying to interact and reduce existing friction. The money fund is referred to as a "40 Act Fund" because the laws came together in 1940. Big surprise: 85 years later, there might be something better that evolves. It feels like a more collaborative regulatory mindset aimed at democratization of assets and inclusivity.

Penny Crosman (29:12):
What are the benefits to investors and participants? You mentioned faster speed of settlement. What else will ordinary users see?

Paul Brody (29:33):
Better, faster, cheaper. When on-chain assets reach their full potential, they settle faster and are fully programmable. Very importantly, you will be able to squeeze incremental return out of the same asset because you will be able to borrow against that asset, put it into a liquidity pool, or lend it out. What used to be a complex, expensive, vertically integrated stack is becoming a small slice of software in what looks like an app store ecosystem. The whole infrastructure will work faster and you'll be able to squeeze more return from your existing assets. This will matter as interest rates come down and the search for yield gets more intense.

Penny Crosman (31:03):
Who will operate these app stores? Individual operators or Uber providers?

Paul Brody (31:20):
There will be a very big opportunity for trusted players to curate that window.

Roger Bayston (31:30):
You can easily imagine what AI agents might do for you. My limited brain can only deal with a limited number of app stores, but when an AI agent is at work while I'm sleeping, branding might not be as important. This technology is hugely disintermediating. The challenge for financial markets has been that 99.5% of a data set is matched, but reconciling that last 0.5% is costly and takes time. When you have the same record on both nodes, you eliminate that costly intermediary behavior.

(33:38):
We do believe crypto is capital. We are unlocking the ability to tap a wider range of assets. We see how this technology helps streamline the collateral management process. As banks adopt distributed ledger technology and clean up collateral management, they might be able to lend more assets. You can imagine banks originating a variety of other assets and syndicating them in the same way they have syndicated bank loans. This unlocks a lot of opportunity. I'm encouraging middle managers within organizations to experiment because nothing supplants the wisdom of working across markets to see what new utilities exist.

Penny Crosman (35:17):
How do you look at the benefits, Sabih?

Sabih Behzad (35:28):
SWIFT went live the year I was born because Telex had run its course and the industry needed one channel for consistent messages. I think some in traditional finance are waiting for a "SWIFT moment" where one app store springs up, but I think that's a mistake. It is much more likely that we will have a number of disparate ecosystems joined together. It's not going to be a "winner takes all" platform. It will be a multi-vendor, multimodal model, which is great for end users because it provides optionality. As long as we're not creating islands of illiquidity or interoperability problems, it's a good thing.

(37:07):
The ability to customize your investments will be far greater. You can take a scalpel to your portfolio. Today, we can buy single stocks or ETFs. But what if I only want a very specific sliver of a real estate portfolio, like property in Munich or three-bedroom flats in London? This technology allows me to slice and dice investments in a way that is either too expensive today or simply not technically feasible.

Roger Bayston (38:15):
Personalization and customization mean that there's going to be some investments you have more emotional attachment to. You're not just looking for financial returns, but can manage them alongside other goals. For too many years, we've thought about risk and return as two-dimensional, but the world is three-dimensional. In virtual worlds, we're going to see multiple dimensions. How do you optimize across a plane? What if your objective is to have impact? Your financial advisors will help you counsel on how to optimize across a plane. This is pushing the industry in a more meaningful and personalized direction.

Penny Crosman (39:46):
What are the remaining challenges? Paul mentioned privacy on a public blockchain. What are the others?

Paul Brody (40:10):
I think there are three. Short-term challenges are technology and operations. Privacy hasn't been nailed down yet. We don't have fully comparable assets; we benchmarked a bunch of on-chain real-world assets and people are not getting their dividends or voting rights. We need to level that up. Beyond that, I worry about fragmenting liquidity across Ethereum layer two networks and having people prevented from moving assets on the grounds of KYC or regulatory rules. I want to see a maximally decentralized, permissionless ecosystem.

(41:06):
The second is we need a good intellectual foundation to answer the question: "How much German real estate belongs in the pension portfolio of a California retiree?" A lot of money is held to a fiduciary standard, which means you need to be able to explain your decisions. We have an intellectual foundation for index funds from the 1970s, but we don't have enough data and track record for on-chain products to answer what the real liquidity risk is for a fiduciary standard.

Penny Crosman (42:24):
Sabih, what do you see as the biggest challenges?

Sabih Behzad (42:33):
There's a standards piece that still needs to be addressed to iron out discrepancies. There's an integration piece. For longstanding financial institutions, the challenge is integration with legacy systems. How do I make this work with what I already have? The onus on regulated institutions is to provide a full view of a client's activity. We've got to have a holistic view, joining disparate systems and processes.

(43:42):
The other piece is potential regulatory misalignment. This topic is global because money moves in a global, borderless manner. Misalignments in regulations between jurisdictions can prevent scaling. Getting critical mass is also vital. A financial institution could come up with the perfect tokenized asset, but if nobody else adopts it, it's a waste of time. I feel like the industry is now identifying the same problems and working towards the right solutions.

Penny Crosman (45:13):
It seems like the Ethereum ledger is what a lot of players are gravitating toward. Is that becoming a standard?

Paul Brody (45:38):
Ethereum has a ton of momentum. The layer two value proposition—the ability to set up your own network with your own capabilities and environment—has been very appealing for financial institutions.

Penny Crosman (45:59):
How about you, Roger? Any remaining challenges?

Roger Bayston (46:05):
I think of them as opportunities for those moving fast to remake the landscape. When we were talking to the SEC about Benji, they were reticent about funds because if everyone hits the gate at the same time, they put pressure on the market. But because Benji holders own it in a digital wallet, we could hit a button and put small slices of all the T-bills or repurchase agreements in the client's accounts so they actually own the collateral. They don't have to wait for the liquidation process to end up in cash. This was the lesson of the global financial crisis.

(47:43):
This ability to do in-kind redemptions and subscriptions is super impressive and underpins the current ETF business. There are disrupting things here that will affect intermediary business models. That is a big challenge for banks who make money as intermediaries. Yet, it unlocks new opportunities. US-based banks were frozen out until the new year, but they can now unleash their capital and ideas to be actors in bringing these things together rather than allowing the crypto-native industry to develop standards without them.

Penny Crosman (49:05):
What about the risks of money laundering? A February report from Chainalysis estimated $25 billion in illicit transactions involved stablecoins last year. How much do you worry about this?

Sabih Behzad (49:40):
It wouldn't be responsible not to be worried, but we are not excessively worried. The importance is to understand the risk, understand mitigation steps, and manage the residual risk. The risks of money laundering are not new. They existed with cash in suitcases and traveler's checks. The question is: how do you mitigate that? Companies like Chainalysis and Elliptic are there to help. We are building out our custody capability alongside a transaction monitoring capability. This technology actually gives you a way to interrogate where these assets came from.

(51:26):
You can trace an asset from inception to how it ended up in someone's hands. You simply cannot do that with a paper note or commercial bank money today in any meaningful way. If harnessed properly, it could actually help achieve a better result on money laundering than we've managed in traditional markets.

Penny Crosman (52:00):
Paul and Roger, do you agree?

Paul Brody (52:02):
I want to know where this fits relative to other types of payment infrastructure. If the rate of money laundering on blockchain is lower than in a traditional banking system, we would actually have less money laundering by moving in that direction. There is no system with zero money laundering. We need to benchmark this against other options. Air travel is technically safer if every child has their own seat, but if that makes it too expensive, people shift to cars, which are substantially more dangerous. The same is true with these substitution effects. If we had data proving blockchain has a lower risk per volume, it would give us compelling decisions.

Penny Crosman (54:03):
We have a question from the audience: Sabih commented that a single app is unlikely to dominate. Does this indicate interoperability and industry standards will be a key enabler or hurdle?

Sabih Behzad (54:27):
I absolutely see a future where there's interoperability. Two things are important: the criticality of wallets and the blurring of the line between traditional assets and money. Utility of accounts will decline over time as wallets take over. Users won't care about the nitty-gritty of which blockchain to use; they just want to send money or buy an asset. Smart people behind the scenes need to take care of the mechanics. Traditionally, assets moved differently than money, and we tried to net them out while facing counterparty risk. Those concerns are starting to dissipate.

Penny Crosman (56:28):
One more audience question: where does business-to-business fit into the tokenized future?

Paul Brody (56:47):
Business-to-business payments are moving rapidly. We did a survey showing 54% of large corporates plan to test stablecoin payments, with the number one use case being cross-border transfers because it's cheaper. 100% of business agreements come down to: I have money, you have stuff, and we exchange them under some agreement. We are tokenizing the money with stablecoins, we can tokenize the stuff as a digital product, and we can turn the agreements into smart contracts. You can take the cost of that whole process down by 50 to 90% and collapse the cycle time by 99%.

(57:55):
Businesses want to use stablecoins to transmit, but no business wants to sit long-term in a non-yield-bearing asset. The money sitting in corporate treasuries that can move like stablecoins inside the same network is the unlock. Business adoption of the digital wallet is the key.

Penny Crosman (58:38):
Well, you guys have been very articulate evangelists. We are out of time. I'd like to thank Sabih Behzad, Roger Bayston, and Paul Brody for your thoughtful comments today. Please stay tuned for the next session at 12:55.