Paying It Forward: How To Be an Effective Sponsor/Mentor

Hear senior women discuss how a mentor helped forge their career paths and why it is important for the future of their institutions to help the next generation create a successful path.

Transcription:

Chana Schoenberger (00:13):

Can you hear us? Man, I'd hate to be the person who has to follow that. Oh, wait a second. So, to completely switch gears and talk about business related crises, I have here three fantastic women leaders... Ernie, Ellen, and Titi, all of whom I'm sure by reputation. And we are... we're going to kick this right off. We're going to talk about being a mentor, being a sponsor. So do you want to start Titi, you can start. What have your experiences been as a mentor and a sponsor and then being mentored and sponsored when you were more junior?

Titi Cole (00:51):

Sure and good morning everyone. Great to see folks in person again at conferences. So to the topic of mentoring and been a sponsor or been sponsored, I would say it has been one of the biggest benefits to my career. So I've had very positive experiences both in being a mentor and being mentored. And as I think about the things that have really stuck with me from the experiences as a mentee, my mentors gave me critical feedback. Even the things we don't want to hear they leaned in to advocate for me and almost became what you'd call a sponsor for me and all when I was stuck or indecisive or fearful, they always pushed me to embrace change and step out of my comfort zone. So as I think about now as a mentor to others, those are the same things that I try to do and I find that I sometimes learn just as much from my mentees as hopefully I'm imparting in them as well.

Chana Schoenberger (02:00):

Great. Ellen, how about you?

Ellen Patterson (02:07):

Okay. It is on. Great. So I guess one thing, Chana, that I'd say you mentioned, what's the experience when you were mentored, when you were more junior? I guess I would say, and it sounds like Titi maybe you were saying some of the same things. That doesn't stop. I think the importance of mentorship changes, but I consider myself still being mentored and I actively look for it. I think what I look for probably is different than when I was more junior, but I consider it still one of the most important things really just to stay open and watch. And if some have people to ask their opinion of things and really almost just watch for style, I consider that something I still sort of actively learn and you can view that as a form of being a mentee. The things that I think were really consistent in terms of what made a really effective mentor.

(03:00)

I think Titi mentioned one of them, which is honest feedback. So again, I think the ways people can do this in all different ways, and again what you're looking for will change over time and situationally, but I'd say the things that were most consistent were being honest. So whether it's honest feedback or just honest answers to how would you approach this will be one thing. And the other thing I think that I really try to focus on is being that the most effective mentors were willing to offer their experiences and their approaches to things, but were very conscious not to assume that that was right for me. And so I'll share with you my experience, I'll share with you how I would look at this problem, but not assume that they knew everything about my situation or my own experiences that it would be right for me. And so I really try to maintain that approach as well as I try to listen to people but not jump to a solution for them.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (04:00):

Well, it's hard to follow that with the both of you. I would say I'm still in progress of being mentored if I can use that. And I would say as leaders rise up in the organization, people tend to avoid you in the sense of having mentors. So as you rise up in the organization, I think it's really important to seek it out more so than you would have because it's can be a little intimidating to perhaps mentor someone who's in a senior role, but every person needs it. And so I would find the safe, I have a couple safe havens if I can use that terminology that I go to when I just need a check-in. And so I think that's really important. My experience has been having amazing mentors and they came to me in very and unique ways. And so I want to talk about, just for a second, surprise mentorship.

(04:53)

You may not know somebody is mentoring you, but you just need to pause and think about it. And those were in my career, the most special mentors I had because they did it in their unique way and they did it when they knew I needed it the most. So I think there's a proactive side to mentorship and a reactive side as in what you do, but this proactive as mentors going out and seeking. So I think this is something I would say so important right now for women in general. And so I know we're going to get into that, but I think this is something that we all to say we're going to do and we're going to find the time for it, but also that we know that we recognize as a person we need it to. So...

Chana Schoenberger (05:37):

Definitely. Okay. So any of you have specific examples You could tell us an anecdote about a time when a mentor really came through for you or gave you some advice that you found life changing and changed how you actually worked?

Titi Cole (05:52):

Sure. So this was early in my career when I worked at Ernie's company. And there was this woman who was, she actually wasn't in the organization, but she was an executive coach and she had been assigned to be my coach as I became an executive and transitioned from McKinsey. And she would give me feedback on different things. And then she became a mentor because she had been in the industry for a long time. And one piece of advice, she gave me critical feedback that has stayed now I guess 20 years and really changed my life was, and this one is funny. She was like, you need to exercise more. And I was physically exercise, physically exercise more. And I was like, what are you talking about? She's like, you have too much energy. And I was like, what? She was like, yeah, yeah. And she actually filmed me imagine watching yourself on tape in a couple of interactions and she was like, wow, you just have so much energy and you've got to find outlets for that energy because when you bring all that energy to work, it can be intimidating, it can be challenging, it can be a little chaotic and people are trying to follow you.

(07:10)

And they're like, whoa. And she's like, you need more outlet for your energy. You need to get some of that out of your system before you show up at work. And literally she got me into my daily exercise habit and it allowed me to better moderate my energy levels, my energy, be more intentional interactions, obviously also physical and mental wellness. And that was a piece of feedback from a mentor who had observed me and gotten feedback about how I was interacting with my teams. And oh, she's very intense and you hear this, she's very intense. She, she's very intense and she was trying to unpack that. And it all came down to energy levels and moderating that and her suggestion about more physical exercises and outlet. And that changed my life. And I've done that pretty much every single day for the last 20 years. It also changed my personal relationships as my husband can attest to I do so much better whether I've gotten my exercise in the morning

Ellen Patterson (08:07):

Funny. And my husband sometimes tells me, why don't you get out for a run? Yeah, exactly. I, I'd say, I think some of the smaller moments are really significant, and so sometimes that just builds up over time. But I guess I'd also call that something earlier in my career with somebody who was effectively a peer in my law firm, maybe a year or two older than me. And I was just sort of frustrated by what I saw about my style not matching what I saw in senior leadership. I can never be like that. I'm ever going to go in and pound the table. I was a mergers and acquisitions lawyer, that's how I grew up and I don't think I'm going to make it here. And he said to me, I don't know, I think it's just bothering you because it's different. Why don't you watch a little more and watch for the little things that are effective in other people?

(08:58)

And maybe you'll notice that not everybody pounds the table, but that's what you notice because it's different from how you would approach it. And it really fundamentally changed both my career at the law firm. Cause I did, I just sort of watched and I was like, oh, I can do that. That's how I might approach that situation. But he was right. It didn't stand out to me as much because it wasn't different or it didn't jar me. So I've both, so I made partner at the law firm and had by then developed my own style, which was definitely not pounding the table but was very effective. And then I've taken that forward all the time, just watch and don't react quickly because if there's anything I sometimes do, it's react a little quickly. So just slow it down and that that's something I've transferred into. One piece of advice that I've transferred into a whole different series of approaches.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (09:52):

One that I can remember is, and it's happened twice in my lifetime where I've been at a point where I've been really loving the job that I'm in, really loving it. I'm on high, I'm coming in Monday morning, this is the best thing that's happening. And then being presented with an opportunity that went, that's takes me out of what I really, really love to do and I'm got a plan and you shouldn't get off your plan. So I got to finish this plan, I want to execute this before I leave. And having a moment with a mentor that said, let's think this out a couple of years out and framed up going into something that was extremely different. So not in my happy place if I can use that terminology, but then helping me through that time to say, this is what you're learning through that or coaching me through the conversation of it may be painful, but what are you going to gain out of this and how do you get energy from it when you may not be as excited as you are? And as a result of that twice now has happened. It actually positioned me for that next role that was more senior. And so I think mentors have a great role of kind of, I'll use bad language, kicking you in the pants to say, get out, you're too comfortable, move on. And in the move on seeing ahead of you or helping you see ahead that that's actually a step that's three steps forward and you would've thought it was a step behind. So that was a moment for me twice in my career.

Chana Schoenberger (11:21):

Without coasting. That's really important. Yeah. Okay.

Chana Schoenberger (11:26):

What is the difference between the effectiveness of formal mentoring relationships and then spontaneous ones? How do you make the both kinds as effective as possible? Sure. We'll go the other way.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (11:37):

 I'm going to start because I think spontaneous mentorship is so powerful. And...

Chana Schoenberger (11:43):

So you say that now and everyone in the room is going to come up to you after this talk, and be like, "will you mentor me?"

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (11:47):

Yeah. I'm all in. And just to tell you, I did that with the barista this morning at Starbucks. Just, and I say that because I think as women we walk around needing to be in our balanced position. Our balanced position mean we have to be leaders in our job, we have to be effective in what we're executing on, and then we have a role to play, which is that make all women in and have that opportunity that we've been given. And so if you walk around in that balance, you keep your eyes open for seeing those moments when you can just pull somebody aside and say, you know, were great here and what are you thinking about doing next? Are you really happy with your job? Does it motivate you? Does is that it's asking questions that then starts that person thinking and then starts into perhaps maybe creating a formal mentorship. But can you imagine if you did that once a week as a woman? And sometimes I think about the end of the day, what did I do that day that might have spurred someone on? And it could be a male as much as it is a female. So it's not just a female sport, if I can use that terminology.

Chana Schoenberger (12:56):

And I'm assuming of course, that you've all had mentors and sponsors who were men because most executives and banks are men. <laugh> just how it is.

Ellen Patterson (13:07):

So I guess I'll call it organic mentorship rather than spontaneous, but...

Chana Schoenberger (13:13):

Farm to table mentorship.

Ellen Patterson (13:14):

Yeah, love it. But what Ernie mentioned, I think is exactly it. You look for the moments on both sides of the equation. I sit in all our board meetings, and so one thing I try to do is reach out to people in advance and or always after and say to people, look, here's what I think went really, people who don't present in front of the board regularly, here's what I think went really well. Here's where I think maybe it missed the mark a little bit or how you might react to something in the future because I get to see it all right? And so I share that with other people and sometimes those turn into longer conversations and sometimes they don't. And so think about that from your side too, asking for feedback in the moment, asking for a view on a specific thing so somebody can, rather than "What do you think about me?"

(14:00)

What do you think about how I approached this problem? Or what do you think about how that interaction went can lead to something? But it might also just be a little bit of mentorship in the moment, but it also might develop. I do, however, I'll just say one word on formal mentorship, which I think obviously is incredibly important too. You need to create those opportunities. And if you are on the mentee side of that, own it. Go in, know what you want, lay the groundwork, build the relationship, but be responsible for what do we want to talk about in this conversation if the program doesn't set that out for you, which I think good programs really do give you some, at least some guardrails out of how to do that. But own it on your end is what I'd say there.

Titi Cole (14:41):

And just building a little bit on what Ellen just said, especially on the more informal ones, which I think are sometimes the most powerful. You have to remember though the intentionality because sometimes you find these things become like friendships and then people on your calendar, they just want to chat, that's great, but it could be even better if we chatted a little bit and then we talked about you and now I can help you. So I would just say with the informal ones where you then become friends, which is actually really powerful. Make sure though, especially for women where we tend to be a little more relational, that friendship doesn't take away your ability to effectively nurture that relationship to also help you your career. So you have to be intentional in your interactions with your mentors, either formally or informal mentors, to make sure there's a lot more intent in the conversation. And it's not just, oh, we're just having coffee and talking about the kids, which we can do as well, but you generally need a little bit more than that.

Chana Schoenberger (15:47):

The other thing that's interesting is that I think as women, we are often socialized to say it's sleazy and careerist to go up to someone and say, Hey, I want to get a promotion, or I would like to aim towards this job. What do I need to do that we feel that's somehow not cool? It's tacky, but of course not. You absolutely have to have a plan and you have to do this official networking stuff. It's not a problem for us to do that. And men don't have that at all. They're fine with it. Okay, so what is the best way to advocate for a mentee when you're the senior executive?

Titi Cole (16:28):

So I think the critical thing is you actually have to know them, their interests, their aspirations, what they're working on to be credible as an advocate. So invest in the time to get to know them so you can actually be credible for them. You also, I think, have to make sure, especially if they're not in your direct line of sight, you're not sitting in meetings, you're not getting to observe them. You have to make sure that you put in the effort to actually get feedback if you're not observing them, if you're not seeing their work, you have to work your own network to get the feedback from their peers, their managers, their teams so that you can be helpful for them in their development. And then the other thing I always say is if you're going to advocate for somebody credibly, you have to be willing to bet on them too.

(17:20)

I sit in conversations, say, oh yeah, this person's fantastic. And then they have an open rule. Oh, no, no, no, they're not on the slate. I'm like, okay, help me understand. Right? So I always tell people, you have to be willing to put your money where your mouth is. So if they're so fantastic and you're advocating for them, then when you have opportunities as well, if they are in the slates for them or they have the qualifications, you also then as that advocate, have to be willing to be the one to make the bet, because sometimes need to see that for others who don't know them as well, to make those bets on them.

Chana Schoenberger (17:55):

That's great advice.

Ellen Patterson (17:56):

Yeah, I think those are great. I would add know how the system works which varies by company of course, but know how the system works and if the system means in April we do succession planning, then make sure you're thinking about March. How am I going to talk about this person in succession planning and how am I going to try to have them? We're already on the list when we come into succession planning and then all the informal stuff. Somebody does something great, call it out in a room where people don't know them as well and why. It was great. That's all I'd add.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (18:29):

Yeah, I, I'd agree with everything you said. The other piece for me is you have to balance using this language a mentor because some folks think it's not great. Oh, you're the mentor, so therefore you're biased right on that person because you're the mentor. And so if they're not successful, that probably says your mentoring wasn't very successful. So I think you had to be very, very careful on where and how you declare that you are a mentor for someone. That's kind of always my caution because I think if you're less declarative, you actually can have all your antennae up and listen to the opinion of everyone around you is about that person. And you can actually present an unbiased viewpoint because you've heard everybody's to that person in its great feedback. So I'm always trying to balance where I say I am a mentor of someone declarative.

(19:23)

Obviously HR systems know all who's mentoring who, but I think that's really important as well as to make sure that you are able to do the work as a mentor by being able to listen and hear. The other piece of it also is I'm really passionate about having the success story of anyone I'm kind of mentoring with. I should know their success story by heart so that when I'm walking around and I see something happened in that area, I can say, well, so and so did this and this and this. So I actually have the story. So if you were being mentored, if your mentee, make sure your mentor knows your success stories and that they're current as in not five years ago kind of thing. This is what I've done over the past six months. This is my accomplishment. So that the mentor could be a better advocator on your behalf as well.

Chana Schoenberger (20:16):

The secret mentor. I like that. Okay. We only have time for one more question. How do you keep those relationships going even if you're no longer at the same institution, which is very common for people to move in banking.

Titi Cole (20:29):

Some of them may most impactful mentors. We never actually worked together or in some cases we worked together very briefly and then things changed. And so I always tell people it's a small world, it's an even smaller industry. Relationships matter. And in some cases, when you're no longer in the same organization, it might actually be easier because you still have industry issues to talk through. You've got regulatory stuff to talk about not the CSI stuff. And more importantly, those people can continue to mentor you on leadership, which by the way, transcends industry and create opportunities for you in the industry or even board roles at some point. So I find it fascinating where people leave organizations and then assume that that means all the relationships in those organizations have to end. I'm like, no, some of my best friends are places I worked two, three jobs ago and some of my mentors where they didn't work together or we worked together 20 years ago, but we kept that interest going.

(21:30)

So I would say stay connected to them. And now with social media, it's super easy. Stay connected to them on a periodic basis. Keep them updated on what you're doing. If you know about their interests and passions inside of work, outside of work, send them relevant, interesting things. I love it when I get an article from someone and say, oh, I know you were interested in Formula One and this just happened, and isn't that fun? Because it just again, makes you relevant, keeps you top of mind for them. So stay connected, stay relevant, and they can continue to mentor you in effective ways around leadership and progress, in career, all the things we have to navigate as women regardless of if they still work in your organization.

Ellen Patterson (22:16):

Great points. I think I build on one thing Titi said which is maybe you have a little bit more flexibility in the relationship once you're not at the same organization I reached out to when I was considering making my move to Wells Fargo I reached out to somebody who was, I'd consider a sponsor in a prior organization because I just knew I could have the conversation a little more honestly. And to really think through what are the pros and cons of this? And the piece that I'd say I sometimes hesitated in the past to keep up relationships if it wasn't somebody that I had been really close to. And I just got over it because I realized a couple times after sending something, oh, I don't know if this person really wants to be in touch or hear from me. I'd send something. And the person was like, remarkably enthusiastic. Lovely. And so I always try to do that on my side of the equation too, because I remember how that felt. I was hesitant about reaching out and wow, that person made me feel like they were still invested in the relationship. And so just keep at it. It doesn't have to be all the time. You can have very effective relationships that are periodic, but if you had a trusted relationship with someone then it's really worth continuing to invest in.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (23:31):

Yeah, I would say they're probably more difficult, I would think as you try to do so much more mentorship in your own organization it becomes a little bit more difficult. So I would say there's more onus on the mentee to keep the connection ties, right. And another piece I would say is after you leave every conversation, I always like to leave us. So what are you going to do about this kind of statement? And it leaves that person with, okay, an opportunity to say, I'm going to come back and talk about that or think about that and I'll get back to you. And it could be six months from now, whatever, but this notion of planting a seed that then they have to carry it through to fruition keeps a connected tie that says, I owe you this still. When that, and I know just it's an accountability and we all know we're better when we have an accountability partner and have a task to do if I can use that bad language, but it's not a task. It's actually something that's really motivational for that person to go away and think of. And that's usually how I'm able to discern who's going to be really in the long haul. It's the work effort that the mentee goes away and does. And I really want to keep stressing that because you get what you give into that. And both sides need to be equal partners in this.

Chana Schoenberger (24:45):

Definitely, well, we're out of time. Thank you so much, Ernie Ellen tti. Really appreciate it. And yes, you all are welcome to swarm them and try to get them to be your mentors next.