Venus Williams: Achieving equal pay

When Venus Williams won her first championship at Wimbledon in 2000, she was substantially underpaid compared to the men's champion that year. She spent the next seven years pushing for equal pay for women in tennis, and in 2007 Williams became the first woman to collect an equal-sized check as her male counterpart.

As the founder and driving force behind her activewear company, EleVen, Williams continues to advocate for equal pay in business and in sports. Join Williams and Ernie Johannson, Group Head, North American Personal and Business Banking at BMO, and moderator Lorraine Hariton, President and CEO of Catalyst, as they discuss their efforts to ensure that women achieve pay equity in all industries and at all levels.

Transcription:

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (00:20):

Welcome.

Lorraine Hariton (00:21):

Wow, you're all excited to see Venus. I can see. It's all worth waiting for. Ernie and I were saying, well maybe we should sit on the side of her and make sure.... <laugh>

Venus Williams (00:35):

I'm in the hot seat. That's what this is.

Lorraine Hariton (00:36):

And we're okay with being 5'4". That's okay with you. Right. So I just want to say I'm so thrilled to be here talking with you today, both of you, because I'm at Catalyst and we are an organization that helps women in the workplace. And you've been such a vocal advocate for equal pay for women and for what we do. And if there's one measure of effectiveness and successful women in the workplace, it is really equal pay because that is really the measure that reflects on how we are really doing. We can talk about all this stuff, but in the end it's already all about pay. So I want to just frame it a little bit on where we are on that. Okay. So first of all, if you go back to 1980, women in the United States, were at 64% for every dollar that a man made. Now if you go to today, we're really at 83%, and Canada we're at 88%. But for women of color we're still at 64%. So why... you have been involved as a leader as in tennis and as an entrepreneur? Why is this an issue for you? Why have you made it your signature issue and used your really powerful voice to do this?

Venus Williams (01:51):

Hi everyone, how are you? <laugh>? It's good to see everyone. I had no idea we were going to be on this vessel... and as the car drove us, I was like, are we on our ship? Wow, this is fantastic. This will make my day. I can't wait to take my picture.

Venus Williams (02:14):

But it's good to see everyone. Good to be in a room of powerful, amazing women and good to be flanked by two. I'm not in the hot seat, I'm just being privileged to be surrounded by greatness. So thank you ladies so much. You asked a very interesting question and it's everyone's issue. And why is it everyone's issue? Because whether you're a woman or a man, we all have mothers, daughters, sisters, colleagues, loved ones... people that we care about and these women are facing these challenges. 83 cents to a dollar, 64 cents to a dollar. You leave the United States, the gap gets wider. It's a real problem. And the reason it is a problem because women, we make the world go around, we really do. And <laugh>

Lorraine Hariton (02:55):

That's true.

Venus Williams (02:59):

They say it's not about money, but it is about money because with money we're able to affect change and we're not here to make all the money, but we're here to be equal. And that is so important and it's so important to talk about this issue. Once we're able to have these conversations when it's on people's lips, that's when it starts to be something that's actionable. It's important for organizations to make it a part of their strategy, to make sure things are equal. And I experience this myself in my own workplace as a 16 year old going to Wimbledon and then there you are and it's not equal. So it's a problem across the board whether you're in women's sports, whether you are in the office, wherever you are.

Lorraine Hariton (03:41):

Oh, absolutely. And you've been so vocal about this, I think everyone would like to hear your story about being the first woman to have an equal pot at Wimbleton in 2007. And I know this was not just handed to you. I'm sure there were a lot of challenges to make that happen. So we'd really like to understand what it took and how you did it.

Venus Williams (04:01):

Yeah, I touched on this story earlier, but of course I worked my whole life, wanted to get to, wanted to win Wimbledon, not just get there. So wanted to win Wimbledon. My dad said, pick a tournament, you want to win more than any other person. And I chose Wimbledon. And so when I got there and you and I didn't do as well as I would've liked, I was very nervous, choked the match, and I ended up losing first round learning experience. But as I collected my check, it was not equal to the men. And it's a slap in the face. I'm 16, braces, things are already tough. So this made it worse. And I would never want any young person to go through that. I would never want my niece to go through that. She's five years old and feisty and I don't want her to have to go through that situation in life.

(04:51)

So it was a slap in the face. And fast forward some years later, in 2007 I won the tournament and it was a first year that we had equal prize money. I didn't plan it that way, it just happened that way. But in that effort it allowed me to speak up because there was something wrong. And my mom always taught us if there's something wrong, stand up for what's right. And I have very little tolerance for inequity and unfairness. It just makes me mad, I tell you. So anything from the petty to the big, we won't go into the petty today, but that was a little bit of my journey and it was much bigger than what I could have achieved for myself because in the day, at the end of the day, I just wanted to go play and live my dream what I'd worked hard for. But in the end it was beyond what I could have ever dreamed because it affects so many other women after me.

Lorraine Hariton (05:44):

Well it really creates a way for everyone to follow behind you so it makes such a statement. But let's talk about Ernie in banking. When we talk about equal pay and banking, it's complicated because into that number of 83%, we're not only talking about getting the same wage if you're a teller, but we're also talking about different representation in commercial banking at entry level versus investment banking. And so can you talk about the complexities and the structure of the industry and some of the challenges and some of the things that I know everyone in the room has been working hard on this issue, so maybe we can talk about that.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (06:23):

Sure. And first of all, I have to say you went into a match and you changed the way it works going forward. So thank you for leading the way and also Venus, what you do, even still now, you're still giving, doing that exact same fighting for the right thing for all of us. So I just really want to applaud you and thank you. And thank you for J spending some time with us. Cause...

(06:50)

You know said you just wanted to play and you just wanted to win and you just wanted it to be equal. And every day in this country, women get into the office and want to do exactly what you did on the tennis court. We just want to get paid for the work that we do. And so it's a complicated issue. Two aspects to this, obviously equal pay for equal work and I'm really proud, proud that I'm with a company that's at 99 cents right now on the dollar end is punching to get that closed. Cause that's our objective. So you inspire us on that front. And the other piece of it is there's a part of equal pay for equal work, but we have this huge problem in banking that so many of our women are in lower paying or lower jobs period. So they're in our retail bank, they're in our tellers, they're in our back offices and we have an obligation to make sure that we bring these women into equal roles. So getting the equity at the leadership role where the big money might be and training them together. And that's our job. So think about equal pay for equal work, but making sure women are advancing in their careers from a leadership perspective. And that is the double play to make those two things happen at the same time.

Lorraine Hariton (08:05):

And what are some of the tactics or ways you think you're approaching that have been effective that you've seen in the industry that have been effective?

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (08:12):

For sure, and please jump in with some thoughts on this one. You know what, you go from recruitment to make sure you're recruiting diverse populations, we're recruiting for women and then you go from recruitment all the way to who's mentoring them. We talked about this morning, how are we training, how are we ensuring that there isn't any biases in our system? And the system, things you need to fix, let's be honest. But there's also a belief system and I think that's where the stage we're at as an industry is that we need to ensure that everybody is doing this. We've got lots of systems, lots of things that we talk about of how we have training programs, mentorships, et cetera. But we just need to get everybody this and talking about it and making it happen. And I think it starts with women doing it with themselves. And as we rise up, what's our team that I have a 50% female leadership team, that has to be the case for every woman in this room who's running a team. We have to get to that going forward.

Lorraine Hariton (09:16):

So for both of you, and we're starting with Venus, as I mentioned earlier, women of color, black women are still back in 1980 in terms of their equity. What can we do about that problem? That's an endemic problem, a structural problem. And there's been such focus on racial injustice. You have any thoughts on that? And cus as a visible leader in this area.

Venus Williams (09:39):

And you touched on it a little bit earlier, is how are we training in organizations? Are we training people to look past their biases? A lot of times we have biases that we don't realize that we have no matter what color that we are. So we have to look at our biases, but we have to make it a part of the organization to realize that we are having these biases and second, we have to talk about it. And third, we have to make it a goal within organizations. This is how many of X, Y, Z we're hiring, like you said, women. And also we're making sure that we're able to pay these women at these same prices. It's so important also to be transparent with salaries because when we're transparent then we know what people are making. And it's also important for women to speak up because when you pay the way forward for yourself, then you're doing it for the next person too. So if you raise your hand and you speak up. So there are so many different parts to this and sometimes it's hard to speak up. Sometimes you might be afraid, but when you're afraid, you get what fear gives you and that's nothing. So you have to raise your hand and speak up.

Lorraine Hariton (10:51):

So much about this. I'm running Catalyst and you hit on all the major points, you know, took hit on transparency, you hit on biases and created a culture of inclusion where people are aware of it. You talk about sponsorship and stepping up, whether it's women helping men or of men helping women or women helping other women. It's very interesting. Me, I, Ernie, I don't know if you want to add into this conversation a little bit. Yeah...

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (11:18):

I think you, you've said you've hit it all. I mean I think the piece that's really important is for women and these junior entry rules that we're making sure we're paying them well and we're training well we know that when women are at equal pay, right, there's a societal benefit for this and we are all part of that society benefit for us. I think about our people need to represent the communities we live in and represent. There's no way you can understand and relate to anyone. And we know diverse teams are far more innovative and they're far more like driving more economic results. So to, me this is table stakes that we really need to be talking about.

Lorraine Hariton (11:58):

Looking at your career, I mean it's amazing to me that you've been able to be so successful in tennis and then you went back to school and you went to fashion and you then started a fashion business and wellness business and a beauty business. And you're doing all of this together. And I can see from your answers that you really understand it as an employer, not just as a tennis player, you really understand the issue. So I'd like to understand a little bit about what's motivating you to be able to do all these things and how do you do it and are the skills transferrable? And can you tell us a little bit about all that?

Venus Williams (12:35):

Yeah, sport is definitely the ultimate platform for transferrable skills... that's for sure.

(12:42)

Yeah, she's clapping, she gets it. When you're playing a sport, anything you could learn out there is something that you're going to transfer to your life and your business. Life is sport and sport is life. And if you can apply yourself in sport and give it your all, doesn't mean you have to go to the Olympics. It just means you've learned from pushing yourself physically and mentally and emotionally and gaining that control and mastery over self. And when you do that, you can transfer all those skills that you learn, whether it's winning or losing or resilience or understanding how yourself, building confidence, all those things are huge factors. And I encourage all young people to play a sport seriously or pursue a sport or something like that seriously and all people of any ages to push themselves in some sort of physical endeavor because when you push yourself physically, it's all up here too.

(13:39)

So when you push yourself physically, the mind starts to take over where the body can't and then it lets you know that you can really do and achieve anything. On the equity front I relate to it so much cause I lived it, it was me. I was the one <laugh> who was not getting what I deserved. So I've walked in those shoes. And also at my active work company 11, we have a initiative called Privilege Tax. And this initiative is about raising awareness for equity for women. So we've done work in this arena the last few years and some of the proudest work that I do with the organization because it matters and it's real.

Lorraine Hariton (14:22):

Well I you're a woman entrepreneur and I applaud that. I actually was in Silicon Valley and I was a women's entrepreneur and I know getting access to capital is a really big thing for women. In fact, in Silicon Valley, like women get 4% of the venture capital and that has not moved in years. And if you look at the numbers, they're not great. So I'm in front of a big banking audience and you guys have money. I know. So what can we do together to change this equations so women have more capital because without capital you can't...

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (14:55):

That's my question.

Lorraine Hariton (14:56):

Yeah.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (14:57):

This is really, really important and one we're passionate at BMO about, and I know we all are as well, but we have some research that tells us that women in entrepreneurial roles are actually, when they're going out, they're out to make a profit, no question about it. But they're also about equity. They're about sustainability, they're about inclusion. They're actually an ESG agenda at the same time they're making money. And I think you're a prime example of that. That is what's happening with women entrepreneurs. So one of the things that we're very focused on is how do we start kickstart a lot of these women into their first grants And even we're seeing it with women that we give grants to, they start off and they start donating to international girls. They're just engaged with their communities. So that's really, really important. The other piece is just our ability as deploying, deploying our capital into these companies because they are paying back into the communities and also creating a whole other level playing field. These women entrepreneurs, they easily have their 50% and their diversity numbers happening. And so we have a role to play as a company and we do that through our BMO power program, giving capital and just also connecting. The other thing I think you do quite well is connecting networks of people. So whether it be communities or groups that specialize in fintechs, how do you bring all these women together and be able to spawn something very special, whether it be training, coaching, mentorship or capital, all needed.

Lorraine Hariton (16:24):

Well, and I think women's networks are really important. When I was in a tech exec in Silicon Valley, I relied on my women friends and they helped us along and we inspired each other. But it's also important to have the men involved. We know that men represent still most of the power. In fact women are only 6% of the s and p CEOs. So the men still have a lot of the power. And at catalysts we recognize that it's not just also about the women advocated, we need to get the men who have power be advocates for us. So I know that this is something that you've recognized. So I like to understand on your journey, how have men helped you? And of course I saw your wonderful movie that I just like fabulous that you co-produce. So of course starting with your father, but even beyond that, can you talk about that and how you think about that?

Venus Williams (17:15):

Yeah, obviously my dad was huge <laugh>, huge figure in my life. My coach is here, coach Eric...

(17:26)

So he's awesome too. And he actually worked with Serena this last summer and her last few events. So we had the same coach. It was so cool. But of course men are a part of the equation and obviously historically, like you said, they've held the power and just in these last 50 years that women have really started to enter the work workforce in mass. So we've had a late start to the table with thousands of years behind and having that opportunity. But we're catching up quickly in retrospect to that balance. So men do have to be a part of the equation and it's important for us to make them allies and can't always just be women. It's great to be here with all you ladies, of course <laugh>, but...

Venus Williams (18:10):

It can't just be women having this conversation. We have to engage men and there are a lot of men who want to be allies. And the thing is, there's a lot of men who this might not be on their mind. They don't wake up in the morning and say, Hey, now that I think about it, women are only paid 84 cents the dollar. So we have to remind them, we have to make it a part of the conversation.

Lorraine Hariton (18:32):

Well what you're saying resonates so much to me because we have a catalyst program called Mark Men advocating Real change, which has been a game changer for a lot of companies to change the culture and help men become allies. And what it really is is starting exactly what you said, it's not that they don't want to help women, but they're not waking up every day aware of all this. So you got to connect with them emotionally so it becomes part of what they want to do. And then they can really visibly get out there and help in the meetings, in the rooms that we're not in the so to really, really be those allies. And I want to say that at bmo BMO's been a supporter of Catalyst for many, many years, but Darryl White, their current CEO has been fabulous. He's not only been on the Catalyst board and on our executive committee, but he's also the head of our Canadian advisory board and heading and being the dinner chair of...

(19:25)

So I have a really warm spot for Darryl and for Bemo, you can imagine. But I also think that he walks the talk and that's really critical because whether it's pay equity or whether it's racial justice or it's support of reproductive rights that we've talking about right now, CEOs are called on to really not just be performative about these issues, but to really walk the talk. And since men are mostly in power around these things, they've got to figure out how they can walk the talk in a way that's authentic. So maybe you want to talk about that issue and how do we deal with those? And this moment in time, especially with people are really looking for authenticity and purpose.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (20:11):

I think the first part is set objectives and targets. I mean no one can hide when somebody's publicly declared something to their colleagues, to their business and just then measure the heck out of it and do all the work that's necessary. But I really do think it's important on this topic, on the topic of diversity and women and terms of leadership roles, et cetera, is that we look at those metrics at the same time we all get in the room to talk about the financials when you talk about your revenue growth and your return on equity and then you talk about your diversity targets, just, for a second that's getting the exact same attention that your shareholders want, your community want, et cetera. So I think this is an important point, which is you got to treat these not as numbers, but as a serious success factor for your sustainability as a company moving forward. And if you miss it, you're going to lose the future for your company.

Lorraine Hariton (21:04):

And people really got to focus on action and walking. Exactly. Exactly. I mean at Wimbledon, they did pick the pay, they actually put the purse up at the right level, they didn't just talk about it, they actually did it because there's a lot of talk going on. So I want to change it up a bit a little bit. I have these two amazingly powerful women here and can you talk about what you think is really your superpowers that translate into everything you are doing? And I know there's a lot of women in here who might aspire to do some right close to what you're doing and would like to understand what really motivates you and where you think you really have your strength.

Venus Williams (21:44):

Yeah, well I don't want to reveal my secret identity as a superhero. I talk about my powers, but my super fat power is, I always find a way and I know I will. And I think that is what has gotten me through any and everything, any and every challenge. Ones that were seemingly insurmountable is that I knew that I could do it and I didn't think about how it would get done. I just knew it would, so I didn't worry about it. Sometimes you just don't even know how in the world something's going to happen, but you're like, it's going to find a way somehow. And I think that has really served me well and I definitely credit my mom and my dad for giving me that attitude and those powers and of course sport as well.

Lorraine Hariton (22:32):

So I can't imagine in those moments when you're behind and you really got to rally your strength to do that, I guess it takes an inner confidence to really do that.

Venus Williams (22:43):

Well. It's about enjoying the battle and looking at how you look at challenges instead of like, wow, this is tough. Can't wait till it's over, just be in the middle of and like, yes, this is what I want. And then just loving it, enjoying it. This is exactly what I wanted. And I think all of us, we all remember those stories and stories that we tell, even the stories you tell as an organization those times that you really came through. Nobody remembers that Wednesday that was kind of forgettable. Is today Wednesday? It's Thursday, okay, good. This is a very memorable Thursday. But it's important to know that those are the moments in life that you prepared for and that you're ready for and this is what you always wanted. So it's about changing that perspective and training your mind to look at it a different way.

Lorraine Hariton (23:29):

I don't know if you want to share a specific one, would you really remember that you could share with us? I don't know.

Venus Williams (23:34):

I mean, I'll say specific all the time... in tennis you're always down, you're down break point, something happens. And I try to tell myself when I step to the line, sometimes even when you're about to win, sometimes that's very hard to cross over when you're getting close and I tell myself, this is what I wanted and I think about all the things that I can do well instead of, and there are times where it doesn't always go well, I'll admit that, but for the most part I do get there. And even in business there are some moments where you just have a hell of a day. And I think that's even more stressful than being down match point at Wimbledon, which has happened to me and in the final <laugh>, things get real tight there. But it's very tough on those days. And I think one of the skills I use in business is that I allow myself in, I started this in the pandemic actually.

(24:32)

I allow myself a certain amount of time to be upset about something and then I've got to move on. So it started out as 15 minutes and once I used that window, it actually got shorter and shorter and shorter to the point where I could recover within maybe two minutes, 60 seconds of very bad news or something that just didn't go right, and it's all about training. When you do some cardio training, if you continue it, you get better, faster, stronger. And it's the same way as if you allow yourself to train your mind to look at things a certain way, to look at the end and have that look, see it as an opportunity instead of a challenge.

Lorraine Hariton (25:06):

Thank you for that, because we are all watching you on the court and we're saying what is she thinking now? And that's really insightful. Now Ernie, you are ranked number 16 <laugh>. Well, an American Banker, Most Powerful Women. So I'm sure you have your superpowers to, that may be relatable to a lot of the women here who aspire to be at your level. So what are some of the things you can talk to us about?

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (25:33):

Yeah, I don't have any of the superpowers. You have my lady on the court or in business. But what I do think is my superpower, and this may sound a little hokey is just this ability to be with people who a great team to me, I'm in a team sport, I can't win without an amazing team. And for some reason I have an ability to just either by whatever luck or whatever, get great people working with me and mobilizing against something. And maybe I have an ability to attract a great team or maybe better off is let the team just do what they know to do and get out of the way. And I would say that's my superpower.

Lorraine Hariton (26:17):

But I think you also have some really great people skills. I can tell the second I met you, she's really just, and they were talking at the panel before about how important it is to get involved with the people and to stand them and build the team. Yeah.

Venus Williams (26:35):

Oh thank you. I'm in an individual sport, but there's a whole lot of work that goes behind the scenes from my team members too that help me to be my best. And if I don't win, it's their fault. There's hell to pay. But also in business too, I'm very grateful for my team members and I'm grateful that they've agreed to take this journey with me and I try to make it a fun journey as much as possible. That's important.

Lorraine Hariton (27:08):

Looking at both of you, one of the things and reading all about your backgrounds is that you two are both bold. You haven't worked within the system all the time, you are dealing with innovation and transformation. Talk about some of the things you need to be bold to break out of the system to make change what you've talked a lot, but maybe you can talk about that.

Venus Williams (27:37):

I like to think of it as a athletic mindset and being an athlete is so much about your thoughts too. Like a real athlete. And my coach and I were talking about this too, that we work with a lot of beginners, first time people like we do clinics. And it's very interesting how many people will actually take a risk. Most people stay in their comfort zone and they'll just go ahead and do what feels good to them cause they just want to get the ball in. But getting the ball in is not enough. You have to play to win. So we talk about how many people can actually take that risk and take a chance, even if it means making a mistake, even if it means falling down, even if it means failing completely, maybe if it means getting hit in the head. You have to be able to take that risk. And I don't remember the question, why am I even... help me...

Lorraine Hariton (28:33):

About being bold.

Venus Williams (28:34):

About being bold. Yes. So I was saying the right things. So...

Lorraine Hariton (28:37):

You got it, you were on the right point.

Venus Williams (28:40):

I didn't take my meds today. But, being bold is important because if you are not bold then it won't be enough and you can tow the line and it's okay to also be mediocre if that's what you want and you're happy. But if that's not what you want, then you have to be able to take a risk. And I personally learned this very early on literally right down the street at the US Open as a young person. And I was playing a semi-final huge match. My other sister was in the semi-final, not my other sister, well Serena <laugh> that sister. And cause I have other sisters. So she, she's in the semi-finals and she was bold, she took the match. I sat around waiting for my opponent maybe to miss, didn't get the match I logged. It was a horrible loss. It just was terrible because of course we wanted both of us to be in the finals and it'd be so cool. And I wasn't bold enough and it was a powerful lesson. And I remembered after that I said, I'll do whatever it takes to win. I'll do whatever this point requires at this point requires me to do something I'm not even comfortable with. I'm going to do it anyway. And I had to learn the hard way. So it, it's okay to sometimes have that loss, but as long as you're doing the right things and dreaming big enough and failing sometimes, it's the right way,

Lorraine Hariton (30:00):

I guess you're not going to get to the top unless you're bold and take some risks. It's just not going to happen.

Venus Williams (30:04):

No, no, you will not. I don't know anyone who did. I mean, so someone tell me.

Lorraine Hariton (30:11):

So let's talk about you for this audience in a more hierarchical, traditional environment. What does it mean to be bold and talk about some of the things you've been, because I know you're going through it, A lot of, you're going through a lot of transformation. I mean we're all transforming all the time in this environment. So let's talk about it from that point of view.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (30:29):

I think boldness comes from being convinced or really certain of what you believe in or what you want and then going after it. Someone many years ago in my life said it or the decision you're going to make today are you're going to remember it in five years. If you're not going to remember it in five years, just get on with it. If it's a five year decision, really think about it and get your facts and get your choices and run it by a few people and really think about it. But I think so I think boldness comes from a real com you're committed, you have your facts, you're ready to go and you can live with the consequences I would say. So if you can live with the consequences, you go for it. And to me, I think we as women need to be more bolder in our industry and leading the transformation. I think many of you have the ideas of what needs to happen in your business, but you're not sharing them probably because you don't believe you'll be heard. So I think boldness also is about finding someone else who shares your same idea. And then when two or three get together, you can be a force <laugh> in your organization for change. That would be my point.

Lorraine Hariton (31:38):

If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (31:43):

Go together.

Lorraine Hariton (31:44):

Go together. So we're living in a very fragile time. There's been so much change mean over our lifetimes, but really in the last few years things are changing so rapidly and we've now we have inflation, we have a lot of political unrest. What do you think that means for the challenges that we have for equal pay and for the next generation of women coming up and the challenges they're going to have?

Venus Williams (32:09):

Well the macro landscape is very, very interesting to at the least right now. And it's so important to, like you said, be bold because that is what's going to get women to the next level. But regardless of what that outlook looks like, as long as their money to be paid, it should be equal. So even if that money is less for whatever reason, it should be equal across the board.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (32:40):

Yeah, I think as I think about that economic time, I think you have to make your choices, like you're saying the idea of being bold and making choices and sticking with them, but having the agility to get when you get new information, to be able to flex through this time. So I think being convinced of something but also being open to an adjustment is going to be important over the next little while. And I would also say it's really going to be important for us to care for our teams and our customers. Our teams are very anxious. Studies that we've done have shown our customers business all the way through to consumers are an anxious. And so that anxiety, we need to find a way to have great conversations with our customers, help our customers and help our colleagues who are facing this time of anx anxiety. Cause it will pass and winners will win through this timeframe and losers will probably lose through this.

Lorraine Hariton (33:32):

So just to sort of wrap it up a little bit and really anything you want to talk about, what do you say to young women coming up for the next generation of their challenges? Just generally, what would you advise young women coming up?

Venus Williams (33:47):

Yeah, this generation faces a unique set of challenges that my generation didn't face or our generations didn't face in the sense that there's, there's more pressure. Whether that's coming from social media or ideals to look a certain way or be a certain way, be po. There's a lot that we can't even fathom. And what's most important is people say this word authentic, but be yourself. Go fully into that because when you are yourself and when you are investing in yourself and there is no one like you and you know yourself, so you can offer something that no one else has. That's so important. And for young women, just bet on yourself every time. And that's not always easy and sometimes you might not feel like that confident, but make your decision as if you felt amazing. Like ask yourself, what would I do if I felt amazing? And make that choice there. Because sometimes as people or as women, we make choices based on how we feel about ourselves that day. And it's not about just this day, it's about all the other days that are coming.

Lorraine Hariton (34:53):

Well I always think it's important for people align their passions behind what their superpowers are and really drive that. But you know, had that from very early on. So you know, were lucky that way that you've been able to all align it but then expanded into so many different realms and use those superpowers to go to different places. It's really amazing quite frankly. And how about you? Any thoughts you had?

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (35:16):

Your answer was spot on. I think I'll say we have a make ways for people to be allowed to be authentic. So it's our accountability to allow that to happen and then to be able to sponsor it and endorse it and champion it and then use it. Because I think one of the things that's so powerful about great teams is when great people get to be themselves on the team and just be who they are, do what they do, what they're passionate, what they love to do, and just release it. And there's so much of our time and energy I think sometimes containing ourselves and containing others that organizations don't really get the full power of the great people that they have around

Lorraine Hariton (35:56):

The organiz You Catalyst, we are celebrating our 60th anniversary and we're talking about the great re-imagining because we're in a time of really reimagining, but what we want is equity for women and equity for everyone. I mean that's really the vision that I think we're really trying to get to is how do we have a truly equitable world. And Ernie, do you have any questions you want to ask of Venus?

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (36:18):

Just Venus throw

Lorraine Hariton (36:19):

It open a little bit cause I know she does question.

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (36:22):

What is exciting you right now? What's the most exciting thing on your agenda for, that you're working on right now? Because I think you have a lot in your head planned. So what? What's happening? What's exciting?

Venus Williams (36:35):

Oh, I'm excited for every day. Very lucky. I get to get up and go work out for a living and that that's so much fun. Some days I don't want to work out, but that's anybody, some days you don't want to go to the office or get on that call. So that, that's super awesome. And at this point in my life, I've done so much for me that my mind is really turning to more about what I can do for other people. So I'm in a bit of a transition in my life. So I'm very excited about giving back to others, mentoring, that sort of thing, whether it's tennis players, young people, other business, other entrepreneurs. So that really makes me excited. And that feeling of seeing someone else lifted, I don't think there's much else like it. It's like it's such a great feeling. So that's what I'm mostly excited about

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (37:24):

That. That's really cool. Cause we've been talking about lifting women up all this day and tomorrow a little bit as well. And so...

Venus Williams (37:31):

I have a question for you. So what do you think makes you a great leader and to layer on that, a great leader as a woman, what do you think is, what's the differentiator?

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (37:47):

Differentiator as a woman? I think that's a great question. I think the ability to use your head and your heart at the same time is probably what I think differentiates women.

Venus Williams (37:59):

So I need a heart?

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (38:02):

I think you have a heart, maybe nobody told you that, but you got a heart lady. It may not be in a tennis court, but what you do today, I'm a court, you're showing a lot of heart. I do think that's a difference and an ability to be a little bit vulnerable a little bit auth, more authentic. And the other thing I would say is, I'm okay when other people are right. It's not about us, it's actually about we. And I think there's a power in the we versus the me.

Venus Williams (38:31):

So can you dial in more into that vulnerability? How do you show vulnerability with still being a leader and still being strong, still setting an example?

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (38:41):

Well this interview has changed.

Venus Williams (38:45):

That's my last question. I'm sorry.

Lorraine Hariton (38:46):

I'm very happy. 

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (38:48):

It's OK, you're spot on. Give me the question one more time.

Venus Williams (38:53):

How do you show vulnerability and still remain that powerful leader, that powerful example, that driver?

Ernie (Erminia) Johannson (39:00):

Power is given to you? Do not grab it. Isn't that, that's how I think about it. So the reason why I'm saying that is because it's not me giving up power. I only get power and I hate using that word from others. They enable me to do what I do. So that's the power I get. The other thing is the vulnerability means I'm human and that means I can have great conversations when I say I screwed up over here. I made that wrong choice. I really wasn't great today, Venus. I had a bad conversation with you and you know what, I really shouldn't have done that. And I think there's power in the admitting that and then you move forward as an organ organization because if everybody did that and you had frank conversations, I'm not one for politics. And so you can't be vulnerable in a political environment. Yeah,

Venus Williams (39:52):

Yeah, that's a great answer. Thank you.

Lorraine Hariton (39:56):

I actu... that's a great answer. I actually think and Catalyst research also reflects this empathy. Some of the, so traditionally soft female skills are more important now than ever because people are, they're fragile, they work in life, are mixed together. Mental health is a big issue. So I'm hoping that leadership, what we think of as leadership is going to be changing. I think it is changing and maybe a given opportunity for more women to lead with the heart. I'm hopeful of that.

Venus Williams (40:30):

Agreed. I love that. I'm in... I've changed.

Lorraine Hariton (40:34):

You're in. So we're all going to go forward. All of you are leaders and I think we've learned a lot from you on what it takes. Thank you. Really in the moment, what it takes to have that written the moment. I think that that's really powerful. And what it takes to swing for the fence, you know, got to get that home run. The single's not going to do it to beneath the game. So you got to go for it, even if the odds are different. So I think we've all learned a lot from these ladies. And thank you very much. 

Venus Williams (41:04):

Thank you.