Reaching the next generation of banking customers

1. How to engage the next generation of prospective bank customers from Gen Z to Gen Alpha through family-focused offerings & Digital Audio
2. How banks can leverage fintechs to bring a differentiated experience and enhance value for  customers 
3. How to create financial literacy programs that resonate with younger generations

Transcript:

Catherine Leffert (00:05):

Hello everyone. I am Catherine Leffert. I am a Technology Reporter at American Banker. Appreciate you all coming to this panel about how to provide the best customer experience for younger generations and engage with that group. We'll cover what financial needs younger folks have and then go into the best ways to reach them, create content that resonates with them and how to retain them. So if any of you were at the earlier panel also about how to reach Gen Z, we'll touch on some similar topics, but with some very different perspectives. So we're going to really cover a lot of ground here. So today here, I'll go in order of how we're seated as opposed to how we're listed there. So next to me, we have Aaron Plante, Aaron's the vice President of Lending and Banking at Chime, where he leads the company's banking or the company's strategy for its banking platform.

(00:57)

And then we have Matt Wolf, SVP of Business Development at Greenlight, which is a FinTech that focuses on families including financial literacy and products for kids and teens. Matt also leads the company's B2B strategy and led the recent launch of Greenlight's B2B programs, Greenlight for Banks and Greenlight for Works. Then we have Brian Elkins, who's an Executive Director at Monigle, where he works with financial services companies like banks on their brands and customer experiences. He also leads an annual humanizing brand experience study in collaboration with American Banker. At the end we have Elizabeth Song. Elizabeth is the Category Development Officer for financial services at Spotify, where she helps banks and other financial companies upgrade their marketing strategies with digital audio. She's also previously worked in marketing for financial services at AWS and JP Morgan and others. Is there anything else that I missed before we jump into some questions? Okay. So kicking off, I am hoping that we can start by getting a high level look at the financial needs of some of the younger generations and how those differ from older folks. So Aaron, why don't you kick us off with what you see at Chime?

Aaron Plante (02:12):

So I am not sure how different some of those needs are. I think what we've seen a lot is a focus on improving your credit score. I think a lot of younger people, some remember the 2009 financial crisis, some don't, but there was a sense of uncertainty, and I think people have been trying to spend more on debits. They don't get into credit issues, which we see a ton of in our customer base, but a focus on improving your credit in a way that keeps you out of trouble. That's been one of the biggest things for us and our credit builder card is a way that people are able to access a credit, work on a credit score. A lot of our customers, it might be their first credit product they've ever had. Maybe they have a student loan, maybe have a credit card, but it's a way for them to sort of introduce themselves to the bureaus, start that ongoing relationship they'll have for the rest of their lives, but in the way where they always feel like they're in control because the credit card money that they're spending is all secured.

(03:01)

So I am not sure that the needs are so different. I think there's a much bigger focus though from an earlier age on my credit score is important. I need to have one. I need to have it be good because I know it's not just about getting a loan, it's about getting a job or getting an apartment. Landlords will run your credit, employers will run your credit for a lot of retail jobs. So for us, we see that as a huge value prop for our customers. It's something that they're very, very focused on from an early age.

Catherine Leffert (03:25):

Yeah, no, that's really interesting, especially as it becomes more and more relevant for so many different things. What about for kids? Greenlight works with, I mean, literal children, right? Tell me about what that looks like.

Matt Wolf (03:39):

Yeah, I think what we see is, and similar to that, that it's relevant to everybody, but more so profound for five to 18 year old is really having mobile banking first experiences. That's all they've really realized. They don't want just experiences that are useful and easy to use, but really that are kind of compelling and engaging. And there's no sort of options that they have. Banks like Charm that are mobile first. You have technology players like Apple entering this, that they're already engaging with it. You have a six year old in kindergarten, he's got an iPad, he's already being exposed to Apple. So that really thinking about compelling, engaging mobile experiences in the banking space for these kids is really important. We certainly see, we work with a lot of banks and credit unions. There's no shortage of effort. I think that banks and credit unions try to engage and educate all their customers and younger customers, but I think we can probably all agree it's not really a core competency of many financial institutions to create compelling mobile experiences. So we've focused at Greenlight particularly on how do we create a solution custom for banks, for credit unions that allows them to offer a mobile first family banking experience so that they can better serve that customer to educate and engage them going forward as they get older and become an adult.

Catherine Leffert (05:07):

So important. Yeah, the mobile aspect is really important. I mean, I've seen studies about Gen Z behavior where, I mean even laptops, they don't really use them anymore or at least not as much they need the app or the mobile experience. First, I want to talk about making contact with younger generations and really meeting them where they are. It used to be that people would receive white papers or see ads in papers or even walk by a branch and go inside to talk to a banker to learn about a bank. But now it's about really finding those younger people where they are and still feeling cool and trustworthy all at the same time as a bank or a financial institution. So I am wondering if we can talk about what type of content really resonates with younger in terms of mediums and formats and channels, and how can fintechs and banks really apply that? Elizabeth, I am wondering if you could kick us off with digital audio. I think that's a medium I don't necessarily think of when I think of banks.

Elizabeth Song (06:12):

Sure. And that's actually quite funny. I've been at, this is day two at the event, and people who I've had the chance to meet are like, Spotify, what are you doing here? And there's curiosity but also some questions. So in my work, I get to work with financial institutions, their marketing media teams in terms of how to find their high value audiences more frequently. Now are these Gen Z and millennials? And what we like to say is if you really mean what you say about meeting customers where they are. Well, the fact is that music streaming and podcast listenership are on the rise. This is something that when you talk to Gen Z millennials, they cannot live without their playlist. They cannot live without their favorite podcasts. And I was in a previous session that talked a little bit about influencers. Catherine, you moderated that podcast hosts now are the new influencers.

(07:07)

A recent research report that Vox and Magna did showed that 75% of consumers really trust their podcast hosts and use them to make financial decisions. So when you think about that connection between that trusted voice in your ear, and if you're tuning in day in and day out and you are hearing them give you advice about everything from your relationships to your finances, then that means something. And on the music side, we know that younger consumers have always loved music, but financial brands have to work a little bit harder to establish that connection between perhaps a credit card or a new bank account with authentically aligning yourself to music moments. So I talk a lot about playlists and how we can help financial brands find a space where they can incorporate digital audio in their brand strategies that might be in creative, it might be in messaging, but we have a lot of fun and data that we can share with them in terms of what I really think is a 360 audience profile, right?

(08:10)

We've heard a lot about data, but a lot of that data at this conference has really been focused on what the institutions themselves have. To me, that's transactional data. That's amazing. But that's not truly 360. If you really want to understand what Gen Z millennials are going through, it's also going to be the data about their non-financial moments. What do they love doing? What do they love, listening to? What are their passion points? And that's really going to help bridge that gap from being a transactional provider to more of a lifestyle brand. And I think that's what Gen Z millennials are really looking for.

Catherine Leffert (08:44):

Yeah, I think that's totally true. I mean podcasts, I will buy what Ira Glass tells me to. But no, I think that's a really good point and really interesting, and I mean more creative now too. And getting onto that, Brian, I am wondering if you can talk about how you advise banks and what they're missing most often in terms of the types of content and format mediums.

Brian Elkins (09:10):

Yeah. I think what I would say is to kind of blend both ideas in terms of the needs. There's sort of a duality of need here. There's this one that is really about decision support. This is a group that is shaping their futures and they really need decision support tools. When we do research, I'll just kind of name one thing that we came across was in looking at HSAs, we were looking at HSAs and doing a lot of qualitative research and quantitative kind of journey mapping. And one of the things that kept coming up with the younger audiences was, I've got my person and they kept saying, I've got my person. And that person may have been a father, that may have been an employer, that may have been someone that they listened to a podcast on. And it was really about how is there somebody that's providing that financial literacy and the decision support mechanisms so that they can make confident decisions and that can be supplanted with a number of tools and content to really support them along that journey.

(10:08)

But then we always kind of come up against this, well, how do we do that? And then that gets to the other need, which for us is really about identity formation. And so for these younger generations, they're sort of in this critical moment of careers of life stage. They're not necessarily thinking about their futures in the same ways that we did or my parents did in terms of education work 40 years and retire lives are going to be longer. They may have multiple career paths, and they're hearing a lot of that in the news, and they're looking at us and saying, I want to understand my financial journey on my terms and it needs to match my identity and who I am. And that's where things like Spotify content and other folks that we work with to understand what are they using to shape their identity, who are they listening to? What are the influences that they're going to trust and not just see them as people that are providing good advice but are actually embedded in their decision making process.

Matt Wolf (11:09):

Just to build off that going to where trying to create the type of content that Gen Z consumes regularly and doing it and leveraging the channels that they typically consume content at. It can be hard, I think, particularly for financial services firms, but I really encourage you to do it. I don't think it's what we learned working with five to 17 year old. They're not going to read a personal finance book. And I think there's a study we saw from Qualtrics that over 50% of Gen Z is going to TikTok for investing advice they need for not just the p and l of your to acquire customers, but also just the financial health of your future customers. I think it's imperative that you guys do test and do try some of these new channels. You do try to do create short form video content or animations or we found a lot of success in gamification with this generation. It's really used to mobile and online gaming to do this so that they'll actually take advice from the experts who are sitting in this room and not who they're following.

Elizabeth Song (12:21):

 Self-declared experts.

Matt Wolf (12:23):

Yes, a lot of those. So like I said, it's hard. We have a great partner, community financial credit union, their CEO is just super passionate about testing new mediums. I suggest you follow Tansley Sterns. She's already in two months since we launched creating TikTok and Instagram content promoting that you can get their members get green light for free, may not knock it out of the park on the first try, but I'd really encourage you to meet them there.

Brian Elkins (12:46):

I think there's something really instructive about coming back to that idea of they're engaging with this in a great sense because it's going to shape who they are and what they look like in the world. And so when they go to these formats, the reason they spend time on TikTok, our research shows us again and again, is that it provides them something that they can then lead among their peers in or that they can confidently talk to their partners. And so it's a really important piece to get right, because not only is there a lot of bad content out there, but it also lacks the tangibility. So when you talk about those mobile applications and those kinds of tools, gamification, I mean for Right, wrong or different, what Robinhood was so powerful with was that gaming interface. And that can have negative impact as well, but the story is it was something that was tactile that they could without judgment sit there and spend time with and get used to and learn, and that learned behavior then because of something that they're going to influence their peers upon.

Elizabeth Song (13:57):

I think something you said, Brian, just now about discovery resonates because in the research that we conduct at Spotify, we have found out that Gen Z, they really take pride in being that first in their peer set to discover something. And for us, it's going to be that obscure artist. It's going to be that emerging or independent creator that no one has ever heard of. So they want to be the first to bring it so that when they do blow up later, they can make the claim. I was one of the early adopters I was listening when no one had heard of them. And I think that idea of discovery also aligns nicely with where they are in their lives right now. So we know that they use digital audio to explore the different sides of their own personality. How can financial brands align themselves with that discovery moment when they are graduating, when they are maybe taking that first internship or that first job? And you're really trying to find the parallels because sometimes it's important to reach your customers where they are in that money moment, but so often they're not in a money moment, they're living their best lives. So how do you find ways to show up, still be a coach or a cheerleader or some sort of guide, but not in a hardcore, Hey, you want a credit card type of way?

Catherine Leffert (15:14):

Yeah, I mean, I think some of these points will color the rest of our conversation, like engaging and making those snackable bites for them to really latch onto and understand better. But I want to, that's a great segue, Elizabeth, into something else I want to talk about mean. We know that customization and personalization is huge for Gen Z, American Banker and Monocle's research in 2022 showed 73% of people are willing to share data with their financial institution to receive customized benefits. So I guess starting off, Brian, how do your traditional bank clients react to the levels of customization that are often expected these days and the level of data to use to that

Brian Elkins (16:00):

Often with trepidation? Yeah, I think that's a great number to cite, but I think it's actually something like 80 to 83% of Gen Z is willing to give up data in return for something. So then begs the question return for what, right? And a lot of those things can be things that aren't necessarily easy to do, like fees, et cetera. But the magic in where we've seen it with banks and wealth management in particular is that sort of tailoring of content. And when we think about brand, we really think it's not a monolith and we need to think of it as a voice that's going to flex in different moments. So in other words, I am very different at a cocktail party or when I am up here or when I am with my seven year old on the couch, how I show up, how I speak, the tone of voice. It's the same thing for brands. And so that personalization could be everything from the actual product that you're delivering and the channel and the way that exists, but more than anything, it's about how do you show up in that moment? What tone of voice are you using? What kind of content? Is it more snackable in that moment or is it more long form or is it digital audio? And so I think it's really about leaning into that and thinking about user specific moments and how you shape your communications.

Aaron Plante (17:19):

Yeah, I think it's even beyond just how you engage customers. Just like once you've acquired them, God willing to acquire the customer, then you got to keep them. And how do you keep that customer to us? The chime, how we think about it. If you come through, there's the simple stuff like you come through an add for spot mirror overdraft product. Okay, we'll make sure they see that a lot. Okay, great, that's easy. But beyond that, so much of what we offer our customers is through what we call inside the four walls of Chime, where we're not buying credit score information or we're not doing the standard stuff that banks will do to price or analyze their customers. We look at how they're actually using the product, and it might sound simple, but see what they're using it for. Are they mostly using it for peer-to-peer to send money to their friends?

(17:59)

Is it something where they get the direct deposit and then it's their full bank, or not their bank, but their full spending account? And we try to tailor their experiences that way. And so if people have different spending habits, we'll say, okay, well maybe this is a person who's more focused on their credit because they receive high rent payments and maybe they're interested in a mortgage, and so they got to get their credit score up. These are the sorts of experiences even post acquisition, the more personalized it is that drives way, way, way better product adoption slash cross-selling. Same thing around the different products and experiences that you can offer your customer. So we start top of funnel definitely. But to us, that journey continues sort of indefinitely for the long as we have that customer. And the better you are at that, the better we feel like the better we are at that, the more likely to retain that customer 3, 5, 7, 10 years down the road.

Catherine Leffert (18:50):

And you kind of connected two points there. We talked a little bit about some financial literacy. If you are tracking someone's spending habits and providing some options or customization based on that, that's kind of in the same vein. It's helping them understand how they're spending and how to budget and things like that.

Aaron Plante (19:09):

Yeah, our products flex also even within that. So the better in our assessment, someone is in managing their cashflow, for example, we're willing to extend higher limits for their overdraft protection, for example. So even within the product sets themselves, we can have a deeper or shorter relationship based on what our internal assessment of some of their spending habits and how they're managing their money. Yeah,

Catherine Leffert (19:33):

No, I think across industries, one of the examples of kind of trading data for customization that I love is Spotify rap. So I mean, I think it's really interesting that Elizabeth is up here. I don't want to talk too much about Spotify rap, but basically it's where Spotify uses and individuals listening to data, it gives them a recap of their musical journey in a year and suggests what to listen to next. How does this idea of customizing to meet someone's identity translate for finance companies? Elizabeth, I'll let you start and kind of go from there.

Elizabeth Song (20:07):

I love that because Spotify wrapped either causes immense pleasure or immense horror. It really depends on what kind of listener you're and who else might be tapping into your account. We were joking outside a little bit earlier, but it's a great example of where within the four walls of Spotify, I guess Eric, all of our users are authenticated. So everyone is logged in, which means that we have a one-to-one understanding of all of our users. So for example, how long they're listening, what they're listening to, what device they're listening on, are they on a smart speaker or are they listening in car, right? So these are all great signals that we can then leverage for our financial brands who are interested in perhaps a mobile first user or maybe someone who is really tuned in on the regular to the Wall Street Journal. But wrapped is just one way that we take historical listening behavior to make recommendations for our users.

(21:02)

So it happens through other things like Discover Weekly, which is something that is a little bit more frequent than the once a year wrapped. But at the end of the day, playlist culture really captures individuals and Gen Z and millennials really use playlists as a way to learn about themselves. So it is incredibly personal, but at the same time, it's also a very social wrapped part of the phenomenon is sharing your top artists. It's sharing your top playlist. And so we really try to help financial brands find that space between delivering personalized playlists. We can do that on behalf of financial brands. So what I mean is we have done marketing campaigns where we will use the ai, the algorithms behind Spotify to generate a personalized playlist for a target audience and do it on behalf of brand A or B. And then so their users really get the experience of, wow, this is what a personalized experience could be like, and then hopefully extend that to the financial provider.

(22:09)

But I think it's really important because Gen Z and millennials, they don't have patients and they probably would be horrified at the fact that we're speaking about them like this as a monolith because they don't want to be pigeonholed. But I think that's hard. I think I've heard a lot of conversations not just today, but around how to action data, how to personalize it in marketing from product to kind of go to market. And if we can help with that around the edges, I think that's really where it could be useful.

Catherine Leffert (22:41):

Yeah, no, I think that that's, oh, sorry, Brian, were you about to say something?

Brian Elkins (22:44):

I was just going to say, I mean, I think one of the things that I run into with financial service clients when we talk about the use of data and personalization is there's a reasonable fear of the I factor of is it too personal? And I think that what Elizabeth is speaking to, which is really important in what we call the Spotify wrapped effect when we talk about it on our side, is the utility that comes with it and Gen Z and Gen Alpha, they are so accustomed to receiving that utility in return that they're really open to it. And I think that part of that is that identity story, but it's also seeing that throughput of, if I give this, I am going to get something not in terms of product necessarily, but something that's going to make my life better.

(23:35)

And you see it because when people share their Spotify wrapped on Instagram or whatever, at the end of the year, it is a look at me moment that they're quite proud of. And if you were to think about that five, 10 years ago, you'd be pretty shocked to think that people would just celebrate a company trudging through your data, putting it in a pretty package and sharing it with the world. And so it comes back to, we call it this liquid expectations idea of they're getting conditioned to do this through Amazon, Netflix, every other experience. So their expectation is that that consumer experience is going to map to those with the same nudges, triggers and rewards that come with them sharing that data.

Catherine Leffert (24:19):

Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. You also mentioned kind of balancing this trust aspect and something that I wanted to get at earlier, sort of shifting gears is maintaining this balance between being trustworthy and safe and also still being cool and fun. I mean, gen Z and younger people, obviously everyone wants their money to be safe. They want to know that they're working with a trustworthy financial institution. But like you said, they don't want to read 30 pages. They want something easy to digest. And so I am wondering Chime in Greenlight, both have to do this directly. How do you balance that and how do you think about those things?

Matt Wolf (25:08):

Sure. At Greenlight, I think we really try to basically combine the education piece with entertainment. And I realize you guys might say, well, provider of banking services, entertainment isn't really in our realm, but I think we get kind of invited to that realm because the people that we hire to educate our kids, the schools really fall short when it comes to personal finance. Only 23 states require personal finance courses. Average score, a teenager gets on a financial literacy test is a 64 and a survey we just did in Q one of over a thousand working parents is 93% think their financial institution should be the one that helps educate their kids. So in terms of balancing it, we really just, like I said, try to combine education with entertainment and with us, we do it in the form of a game. We invested millions in creating what we call Level Up.

(26:05)

We launched it in January. It takes a curriculum, pretty detailed education curriculum based on national K through 12 standards, but translates it into kind of bite-sized, really fun and engaging games that are videos, mobile games, animations that really give, in our case, like I said, five to 17 year olds, primarily a sense of accomplishment and independence that they're learning about money and gets them continually coming back and engaging, not just trying it once, but actually going to different levels in the Level Up game. And just in the last six months, we've seen double the engagement with financial education content in our app from before by having this gamification component.

Catherine Leffert (26:55):

Wow.

Aaron Plante (26:56):

Think of the last question probably until happy hour saw. Try go quick. So Chime, we're not a bank. We partner with two banks, Bankcorp Bank and Stride Bank. They are both OCC regulated, fully FTIC insured bank. And if you look at our content, it's not something we probably blast in Instagram, but any of our pages, everything like that, we always mentioned your money is FDIC insured during the mini meltdown a few months ago, there was messaging we lean into a little bit more just because people were thinking about it a bit. But for the most part we just try and make it be where it's not something you have to worry about. It's such a baseline need. If your money's not safe, you're just not going to be comfortable whether you're a Gen Z or it doesn't matter how old you are, that's your money, that's how you pay your bills and buy your food and go to work.

(27:42)

So to us, it has to be there every single time. So we don't necessarily dance and sing about it and kind of put a lot of money behind Instagram ads or whatever saying where FDIC insured. But if you look at the ad, it does say every single time FDIC insured, because we know people at the end of the day, the great features, the great products are nice to have and they're great to have, but if the money's not safe, you're going to find somewhere where it is because it's just too, no one has really much, if any sort of budget in their mind, they meant the model of their bank for anything that's not fully insured.

Catherine Leffert (28:19):

Yeah, absolutely. No, very good point. I mean, everybody wants their money to be safe, of course, but I think Chime still does kind of have that cool factor of it.

Aaron Plante (28:31):

We like to think so. But thank you.

Catherine Leffert (28:32):

So we're amazingly coming up on time because this conversation felt very fast. We do have a few minutes. So one of the benefits of having four people on the panel, I want to open it up to audience questions or if you guys have questions for each other, I mean, I think that that's also fine and interesting. So you guys get first pick, so if you do have questions for each other, go ahead. But if not, we'll open the audience. I am sure they have questions as well. Okay. Let's go to the audience first and then we can come back. Yeah, go ahead.

Audience Member 1 (29:06):

Just a question. You mentioned schools and how it's so low, the education, any of you guys doing anything to try to change that? It seems like that's a captive audience to reach this next generation.

Matt Wolf (29:18):

Yeah, we launched a product called Greenlight Classrooms about eight months ago. It's rolling out in Georgia first, which is Greenlight's home state. But the goal is to have it in all 23 of those states. I mentioned map two state specific standards. It's a free resource for educators, so it's taking a lot of, I mentioned the Level Up game and the curriculum, like I said, it's basically free quizzes, worksheets, videos that a teacher can leverage to educate kids in this school setting. Look, financial education is a really tricky thing. I think the number one life skill, parents believe that it's important to teach their kids. It's also the number one that they feel least equipped to do. And if teachers can't do it either effectively, it does fill a void and it kind of falls back to you guys or to you Aaron, when they're making financial decisions that aren't sound. They were on TikTok and that's where they got their advice. But yeah, we're excited to be rolling that out.

Elizabeth Song (30:26):

Other audience questions? Yeah, go ahead.

Audience Member 2 (30:32):

I know there's a lot of research add to the different services on Spotify three, ads here as well, but a lot of people my age being Gen Z are willing to pay a lot of money to not hear ads. I know Spotify podcast has ads even though I have premium, but how do you find other marketing channels for your partnerships with their financial institutions where people my age are willing to pretty much not hear those kind of reach outs despite the good and the willingness financial institutions have to teach them about financial literacy. And we just don't want to hear it because we're just tired of hearing ads in the first place. And so wondering what your thoughts are and how to find other marketing channels and ways to reach out to Gen Z that when we're anti hearing anything about anything so.

Matt Wolf (31:16):

Interesting question.

Elizabeth Song (31:16):

I'll take a, but I am sure you have a view, Brian. Yeah, go ahead. So the question around ad supported services and streaming, I think we're definitely seeing a lot of changes in streaming service providers. When you think about kind of the pay model for subscription streaming, it's something that Gen Z and millennials, because at least for Spotify, they love the music. And so this ad supporter model, we're actually about 50 50 premium versus ad supported. So some people are a lot really surprised to hear that, but that's the challenge. The challenge is when, especially for financial services, how my job is really focused on making sure that the ad experience is not disruptive to the content. And a lot of the research that we have done to address this very question, and I am really glad you're bringing it up, is what is the relationship between content engagement and then ad engagement?

(32:09)

So what we have found that are when people are more involved and engaged with the content itself, i.e., it could be social media, it could be gaming, it could be the podcast or the music. The more involved they are with that content, the idea of transference is super strong. So if they love the content and they're engaged with the content, ad transference will follow. So on Spotify, that transference rate is 93%. So ads on Spotify, whether it's on the music side or on the podcast side, almost get the attention of the person when they were involved with the music or with a podcast. So something like that is super powerful because it helps with brand breakthrough and differentiation is something that comes up a lot with financial brands. How do you separate yourself from your peer set? So we're continuing to do research on that and hopefully we'll have more data and more insights. But again, the challenge is really up to the brand and also for us to help you show up in a way that's not disruptive, but additive.

Aaron Plante (33:06):

One thing I'd add, if you have a product that really works, you'll tell your friends about it. You look a movie or a restaurant, one of our biggest channels, when I joined Chime almost five years ago and today it's still referrals and you become a direct depositor. You incentivize the depositor to send it to their friends. But even with the incentive, you're not going to do it just for the chance that's going to work. You're doing, if you believe in it, you're going to say, Hey, my kids with Greenlight, I am with Chime. It's great. I've heard people say, oh, you've got kids one day you're getting a green light account. I was like, oh, it must be pretty good. So Matt's here, tell me all about it. It's great. And that's something that channel, whether you're paying for ads or not, if your buddy's telling you, Hey, you got to check this thing out, you're probably going to. And so if you have a product that's working for your target market, you can have that sort of organic discovery that doesn't cost you much obviously. And then also you get great conversion, great retention people on the platform works better. It's a really strong incentive to make sure that product keeps working for your customers in the best way.

Brian Elkins (34:04):

I think just one last point. I think that there's something really important about the purchase funnel is not the same anymore. So the more you can drive low stakes opportunities for trial, do it because this is an audience that probably has five financial apps on their iPhones and you can get them there faster. They're going to talk about it. You can provide referral opportunities and benefits around that in the platform. That's what we tell all our clients is that old idea of building brand equity and throwing ads out because we want to build awareness fine, but you got to look at the Amazon funnel and those low stakes purchase behaviors exist in our sector as well and take advantage of it.

Catherine Leffert (34:50):

Great. Well, I think that we're just about done on time. In fact, we're a few minutes over, but this was really interesting. Thank you guys so much for sitting up here and talking about it. And thanks everyone for coming.